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Old 09-12-2013, 11:13 AM   #1
danbowe84
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FI with stock computer

Hi all, simple question I think, can I run a turbo with stock standard ecu computer thingy or do I need aftermarket or piggy back?
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:22 AM   #2
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For starters, NO!

Simple question maybe, but profoundly complicated........There is much to learn though before you jump in. DYODD

If you use a factory turbo engine conversion, you use the TURBO/ECU/MAF-VAF/LOOM/INJECTORS etc. This is for emissions legality purposes also.

If you want to turbo an NA engine, you will need an aftermarket ECU! That is just the start. You will need much more than an aftermarket ECU to boost an NA engine & keep it more than a day.

Piggybacks are used whereby the EMS is already boost controlled. Ie: a turbo ECU
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:43 PM   #3
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Thank you
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:21 PM   #4
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Pleasure

I'm all for radical fun but, really, unless you want huge headaches, learning the hard way, the only viable, cost effective way to have a turbo car is to either get one already turbo'd as in factory (so it's legal & runs likes it's supposed to) or, get a factory turbo half-cut (or @ least the engine/turbo/ECU/MAF/LOOM etc) but, if you go this way, you still have to wire in cabin/interior loom to suit.

It really is a lot of work if your not even half clued up.

All best whichever you decide & myself & others would be more than happy to help you any way we can.

Cheers!
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:30 PM   #5
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I'm going for headaches
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:49 PM   #6
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Nope.

Factory ECU wont deal with the amount of air. Timing maps, fuel maps etc wont be compatible.

Maybe at 2-3 psi. But no more then that, our ecus aren't like black tops which had the ability to compensate.

You will need an aftermarket ECU. Microtech, haltech, aem.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:04 PM   #7
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Ice88 you've gone the n/a route, did you upgrade to a aftermarket ecu?
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:21 AM   #8
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I did yeah. I even have an ecu for sale if you come to that decision.

When you go for agro cams its a little like going for a big turbo in that your down low suffers. You can compensate and get back some or all (pending how agro) of that bottom end drive ability by adding plenty of timing down low.

It also allows you to compensate for errors in the stock tuning.

For instance the FS engine runs dangerously lean at about 3k rpm. At 3.5k rpm its still pretty lean. Granted the stock engine can compensate, and using voltage clamps you can set it go open loop. But these are bandaid fixes and really arent allowing you to get the most out of your engine.

The other aspect is, if youve just spent 3-5k on an engine rebuild, do you really wanna risk it by running the stock ECU? Im doing that myself which is incredibly risky. I can attempt this only as my engine wont be dealing with positive pressures even then its not ideal.

If you really want to get out this cheaply you can get a splitsecond afc which will control fuel and air. It will not do timing which is where you get alot of your power from. Its also never been utilised on an aussie ECU before and i personally dont think itd work that well on an aussie ecu (least not when combined with a turbo).
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Old 10-12-2013, 08:16 AM   #9
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So the microtech? you have for sale was in your car? And you have gone back to standard? Was a aftermarket ecu not suited to your needs? Yeah I'm looking into aftermarket ecu's, just need to find out what I need in it vs how much I can spend.
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Old 10-12-2013, 08:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danbowe84 View Post
So the microtech? you have for sale was in your car? And you have gone back to standard? Was a aftermarket ecu not suited to your needs? Yeah I'm looking into aftermarket ecu's, just need to find out what I need in it vs how much I can spend.
please, do yourself an invaluable favour & research some more. You start purchasing this part & that, soon you will have spent big $'s & still far from your goal/necessary build bits

There is much to building a reliable boosted car. Not just the engine capabilities either. Have you considered the box? brakes? suspension & front end gear?..............hate me now but, you'll most likely thank me later?

Something to consider - an engine with 8.5:1 comp ratio, boosted to say 14psi = ? actual comp ratio........hint, it's higher than 12.0:1!
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:20 AM   #11
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Yeah I have considered all of that naughty gt, brakes, suspension blah blah but the engine build is enough for me to start on.
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:22 AM   #12
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I wasn't asking about buying it, I just wanted yo know why he would go back to stock from microtech(If that is the case)
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:38 AM   #13
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The microtech was to be used with my new engine. *shrug* But the cams I have are too agro for the microtech to handle without having a high idle.

Naughty that isn't really the point. When you have 0 boost you also don't have the advantages of scavenging and the turbo acts like a brake on your exhaust gas velocities. Further the cams will bleed off that 8.5:1 resulting in even lower compression.

My turbo build on paper is based around a 1.8 crank, 10:1 Compression, evo 8/9 turbo and some big cams. It will easily make 350whp. It should be capable of more, but I run into the limit of the maths that I know

What you want is a dynamic compression around 8.5-9:1 off boost. Anything more requires a tuner who knows his ****.
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:12 AM   #14
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.....What you want is a dynamic compression around 8.5-9:1 off boost. Anything more requires a tuner who knows his ****.
Agree totally!

Ok. Wasn't meaning to interfere past just some good ol' fashion advise guyz. The tune, was my point all along! If you tune a thing right, you can do amazing things. But why go for NA boosting as a preference when factory stuff is the way to go. More sensible way, if not for any other reason?

Is it a model you really like that offers no options? If this is the case, by all means further investigate. But, need to use discretion. Count the cost required along the way too. So many cars on the bay being sold off by jerks who wacked a turbo on an engine. Farked it & now want it gone! Or heaps of $'s spent only to have the car mediocre power.

Ice, you obviously have done your homework & must have weighed the pros & cons of what you did. Otherwise, you found out the hard way like most others. I've only today learnt something unexciting to do with gear I got recently. Won't fill the thread here with this nonsence but, don't wanna see other members, esp newcomers go down the ragged rape trail ....on a side note, anyone know where I can find infini driveshafts haha
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:31 AM   #15
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Agree totally!

Ok. Wasn't meaning to interfere past just some good ol' fashion advise guyz. The tune, was my point all along! If you tune a thing right, you can do amazing things. But why go for NA boosting as a preference when factory stuff is the way to go. More sensible way, if not for any other reason?

Is it a model you really like that offers no options? If this is the case, by all means further investigate. But, need to use discretion. Count the cost required along the way too. So many cars on the bay being sold off by jerks who wacked a turbo on an engine. Farked it & now want it gone! Or heaps of $'s spent only to have the car mediocre power.

Ice, you obviously have done your homework & must have weighed the pros & cons of what you did. Otherwise, you found out the hard way like most others. I've only today learnt something unexciting to do with gear I got recently. Won't fill the thread here with this nonsence but, don't wanna see other members, esp newcomers go down the ragged rape trail ....on a side note, anyone know where I can find infini driveshafts haha
Sorry man. My posts aren't as friendly as they used to be, there's an American forum that I frequent which has resulted in my posts tending to be quite blunt.

The engine platform we are dealing with have rather weak rods (Basically BP rod type weak) with higher compression then your normal BP. (9.7:1).

The overlap does mean we bleed of a bit but at a guess Id estimate its not enough circa 9.3:1-9.4:1 dynamic after cam. Which is perfectly boostable, but not on stock gear. At least not to the power levels the OP wants.

I'm not arguing that a 8.2-8.8 static compression isn't a great compression, but the reality is that at those levels he will be breaking g series boxes before he reaches the engines limit at that compression. Also given his goals of 150wkw he doesn't need to go that low, so I'm merely trying to argue for him that a higher static is in his best interest as it will give him the off boost drive ability and more down low. As well as giving him good throttle response.

In regards to homework. I just like reading theory and have sheets of paper at work of different builds that I've done while on hold to the help desk or during lunch. Its something that I enjoy *shrug*

We know that 10.7:1 (?) static works as that's what pete runs (familiagtx), personally I think that's too high to run on stock cams. And would be an expensive build.

At 9.1:1 static which is available off the shelf from weisco (bonus) he'd be at least IMO well set. In the end if he chooses to go for a lower compression that's fine, im just trying to present options that will result in something that I believe are more in line with what the OP wants to achieve (based on what hes given us).

*shrug*
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:37 AM   #16
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Sorry man. My posts aren't as friendly as they used to be, there's an American forum that I frequent which has resulted in my posts tending to be quite blunt.

The engine platform we are dealing with have rather weak rods (Basically BP rod type weak) with higher compression then your normal BP. (9.7:1).

The overlap does mean we bleed of a bit but at a guess Id estimate its not enough circa 9.3:1-9.4:1 dynamic after cam. Which is perfectly boostable, but not on stock gear. At least not to the power levels the OP wants.

I'm not arguing that a 8.2-8.8 static compression isn't a great compression, but the reality is that at those levels he will be breaking g series boxes before he reaches the engines limit at that compression. Also given his goals of 150wkw he doesn't need to go that low, so I'm merely trying to argue for him that a higher static is in his best interest as it will give him the off boost drive ability and more down low. As well as giving him good throttle response.

In regards to homework. I just like reading theory and have sheets of paper at work of different builds that I've done while on hold to the help desk or during lunch. Its something that I enjoy *shrug*

We know that 10.7:1 (?) static works as that's what pete runs (familiagtx), personally I think that's too high to run on stock cams. And would be an expensive build.

At 9.1:1 static which is available off the shelf from weisco (bonus) he'd be at least IMO well set. In the end if he chooses to go for a lower compression that's fine, im just trying to present options that will result in something that I believe are more in line with what the OP wants to achieve (based on what hes given us).

*shrug*
Zall good I thought the FS-DE was 9.1:1 comp? This is why I'm a little confused. If 9.7:1, this is cause for concern for sure!
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:54 AM   #17
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Zall good I thought the FS-DE was 9.1:1 comp? This is why I'm a little confused. If 9.7:1, this is cause for concern for sure!
The US model is 9.1:1 and the 626 is 9.1:1. (626 has a cast crank as opposed to forged though)

SP20/SR2(/Premacy?) are all 9.7:1 Compression
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Old 10-12-2013, 11:17 AM   #18
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The US model is 9.1:1 and the 626 is 9.1:1. (626 has a cast crank as opposed to forged though)

SP20/SR2(/Premacy?) are all 9.7:1 Compression
Ah well. That explains theMAN's input on another thread. Well, if 9.7, hmmmm, yes, you would keep the boost down I also thought the ZE only had the forged crank? Thanks for this info, much appreciated!
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Old 10-12-2013, 11:29 AM   #19
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Nope nope. The only difference between the ZE and the aussie FS (forgetting the 626 FS here) is the higher compression 10.4 (ZE) vs 9.7 (DE). Also has a better intake/exhaust manifold and the ecu is different as well (higher red line 7k rpm vs 6.5k rpm)

Cams, crank etc are all the same.

The MSF Engine which is sort of like a BPD in that its rare has higher compression again, headers and different cams.
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Old 10-12-2013, 12:53 PM   #20
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Sorry back tracking a little ice88 when you say cams will bleed a little of that comp ratio is that because of overlap?

And is overlap purely a way if reducing emissions/better mileage or is there performance gains to be had from it?

Does the ze have a vics manifold?
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