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Old 24-01-2007, 10:03 PM   #1
Dingo_hunter
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How do u drift?

Hey this maybe a REALLY dumb question, but how do u do a successful drift without spinning the front wheels like mad and just losing all ability to turn?

Like i drive a manual 96' BA 323, and just need a few tips to get me started.. (note: im not trying to go all star, i want the basics, as i still drive a stock... with new parts coming soon!!)

Thanks
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Old 24-01-2007, 10:28 PM   #2
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Nearly everyone will tell you that you can't FWD drift. But it really depends on your car, tyres, and where the weight in your car is (you want a back heavy car, hatch with a towbar and heavy exhaust is good for that ). http://www.astinagt.com/forums/showt...ight=fwd+drift

Don't try doing it on public roads unless you are prepared to suffer the consequences! Anyhow, what you are trying to achieve is throwing the weight of the back of the car out with aggressive throttle-off oversteer, and then catching it with precise throttle and steering application without spinning the front wheels too much if at all. You need maximum traction on your front wheels to pull in nice and tight while the back of the car is wanting to go out past you. If you get all this right and are able to hold the line of the corner at the same time, you've got as close to a FWD drift as you can get. My best effort is drifting 2 full laps of a medium sized rounded road obstacle on a private road .

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Old 24-01-2007, 10:29 PM   #3
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overnight parts from japan... that will have you at supreme drifto!!


oh and try a track also
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Old 24-01-2007, 10:47 PM   #4
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ohh kk.. once i throw out the back with the oversteer i turn into or with the slide?? and how much throttle do i give her?? and usually in which gear?? (sorry completely new to the whole concept)
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Old 25-01-2007, 01:18 AM   #5
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For starters, don't ever try doing it in anything over 2nd gear! For 3rd gear you need lots of power and really big gonads, add to that the technique required is probably quite different given the higher speeds involved.

Ok, one time I tried getting the back out with lift-off oversteer, and then balancing the slide with the throttle only and steering the car where I wanted it to go. I found this technique really lame and I wouldn't call it drifting anyway, as the whle car seemed to slide out pushing more than anything.

The style that I found to work for me is to get the speed up, lift-off oversteer, and then catch the throttle with the clutch and find a balance that gives enough torque flare to power the front wheels without them breaking out too much, you then need to sea-saw on the steering quite frantically to keep the weight shift going outward while steering in the direction you want to go.

It is really hard to explain, but you need to feel what the car is doing and respond immediately. I should explain that you won't need to feather the clutch and accellerator constantly, but you need to be ready to do it if you feel the car slowing and loosing the power to pull the front in tight. IF you fall off the power band, your back end will come out and then you suddenly go forwards to what was your right side just a moment ago.

The sea-sawing motion of the steering wheel is not very pronounced, you just make short quick but sharp corrections constantly. I believe this action may also help to give both wheels traction, which is why my front end stayed firmly planted when i got it right. But don't think for a moment that this steering is random, trust me that you are guiding the car while holding the momentum of the back end of the car in an outward fashion. I also think when this is done right that the back end slipping out is pushing the front inward too, so this weight-shift combined with correct throttle and steering gave me my successfull prolonged 2 lap drift.

Now, before you get carried away stacking your car trying. I have got this wrong as many times as I have got it right! It's only when I stopped thinking about it, and just tried to respond to how the car best felt that I got it right. It takes alot of concentration still, but you are not thinking about your motions, moreso the car's.

There is a straight line fake sideways drift where you do a sudden left:right:left in 1st or 2nd gear and then reef on the hand brake and get the back sliding out with locked up rears while doing a burnout. But that could be argued to be just dragging the rear end, and it is. This is very rough on tyres so i don't reccomend you bother trying it. I only mention it as an example of car control, and it looks impressive.

My car has upgraded shocks, lowered springs, rear swaybar and front strut brace. My towbar acts as a trunkbrace too, which probably helps me alot. I've tried doing some of this stuff in a mostly stock SP20 Protege, and I can't get anywhere near as close to getting it right with that sloppy setup. So if you're not successful, it could be just that what works well for me might not work well with you car, or perhaps it won't work well at all with your car?

Gav.

Last edited by chicaboo; 25-01-2007 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 25-01-2007, 06:34 AM   #6
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don't attempt drift if you don't know how.
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Old 25-01-2007, 08:09 AM   #7
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still not a true drift as the rear wheels have to be constantly spinning which can only happen in cars that have the RWD or AWD setup in them. calling this FWD drift is more propper as we cant make the back wheels spin... plus yes will take you a while to get used to not have much control in the rear ends of our FWD. I didnt even attempt to drift one night and i got the back end out then lost it...not fun!
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Old 25-01-2007, 08:38 AM   #8
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I thought the technical definition of a drift was the maintenance of entrance angle throughout the corner?, and had nothing to do with whether the back wheels were spinning or not...

The way it was explained to me was a drift was sideways entering a corner, powerslide was sideways exiting a corner.

What most of us do is powerslide....

I have successfully (and totally by fluke) put my car into a chain of 4 wheel drifts on a hell run through coot-tha (chicaboo in the passanger seat providing giggles and doitt doitt....) - and I had the car sideways on entrance to the corner...

mind you i was moving quite fast, and the tail was beginning to get very happy as my tyres lost adhession..

My technique for power sliding is full power understeer, then lift off oversteer... something chicaboo has learned to appriciate on tight twisties but still doesn't like as it involves the use of both lanes :P...
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Old 25-01-2007, 08:42 AM   #9
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Easy!

Come in, inside of road, late on the brakes, shuffle down twice, point away from apex, switch pedals from clutch (L) and Brake (R) to Brake (L) and Accelerator (R), paddle between the two, transfer weight to the outside, aim for just inside the apex, power on straight after turn in, grab the next gear and away you go!

Works for me every time!
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Old 25-01-2007, 08:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro Boy
Easy!

Come in, inside of road, late on the brakes, shuffle down twice, point away from apex, switch pedals from clutch (L) and Brake (R) to Brake (L) and Accelerator (R), paddle between the two, transfer weight to the outside, aim for just inside the apex, power on straight after turn in, grab the next gear and away you go!

Works for me every time!
dirt/gravel roads help a little i'd imagine, yes? :P
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Old 25-01-2007, 08:52 AM   #11
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Yeah!

The difference being you throw a car sideways on dirt because sidewalls are the best form of brakes!
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Last edited by Astro Boy; 25-01-2007 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 25-01-2007, 08:58 AM   #12
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Yes, I don't like to rely on using both lanes on those private roads. However using both lanes adds serious speed increases but greatly reduces your margain for error. I only use the 4 wheel FWD drift technique on the southern private roads where the corners are resurfaced nice and smooth.

Bourbonerie: What's this about the back wheels not spinning? I don't lock up the rears, I don't even touch the handbrake or trail-brake, I just get the back of the car in a controlled slide. They are still spinning...

Oh, an interesting thing LordWorm mentioned, his method for tackling tight twisties is actually the same thing I was describing would happen if you stuff up a drift, but in a controlled manner. ie: wheels turned and pushing while braking (understeering), then sudden lift-off oversteer, then back on gas and correct steering. You basically slap the car in another direction immediately. Don't do it, bad consequances if you get it wrong.

I'm quite happy that no anti-FWD drift ppl haven't posted. It does annoy me when ppl by pure ignorance and lack of knowledge of car control go and mouth off about stuff they think can't be done because of RWD fanbois dark influence...

Gav.
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Old 25-01-2007, 09:05 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicaboo
Oh, an interesting thing LordWorm mentioned, his method for tackling tight twisties is actually the same thing I was describing would happen if you stuff up a drift, but in a controlled manner. ie: wheels turned and pushing while braking (understeering), then sudden lift-off oversteer, then back on gas and correct steering. You basically slap the car in another direction immediately. Don't do it, bad consequances if you get it wrong.
Yes you run the risk of not catching the correction in time... once you lift off the back starts coming around pretty agressivly...and if you don't catch it properly you're out of control.

if you wanna try it get a nice big bit of bitumen...say, a private carpark :P and give it a try....

Suggest you don't do it on the twisties on your first attempt, unless you don't care if you write yourself off :P
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Old 25-01-2007, 09:12 AM   #14
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Yeah, this stuff you are wanting to do is dangerous if not done mostly right. LordWorm and I like to try advanced FWD driving tecniques any opportunity we find a private road. After a while you learn when to apply each technique for the road conditions.

BTW: I think I had a brain-fart after reading Astro's FWD dirt drift explanation!
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Old 25-01-2007, 09:17 AM   #15
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I dunno if i'd call our techniques "advanced" so much as "stupid" or "irresponsible" :P

But you make a good point... its an attempt to make a FWD car do what it naturally doesn't want to do... then once its doing it it doesn't naturally want to correct itself... you have to be very sharp with your reactions and have an understanding of what the car is upto in relation to the road to stand any sort of chance of getting it right...

and theres always the unpredictable... on my before mentioned coot-tha hell run, I was going crazy on the waydown.. on the return leg, at about HALF the speed, all 4 tyres lost adhesion and i went straight for a guard rail... Was able to keep it together and avoid being skittled...but the point is that you can't predict everything....
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Last edited by LordWorm; 25-01-2007 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 25-01-2007, 09:19 AM   #16
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I say it's advanced cos we still have our car's in 1 piece!

Just remember, it's worse when I stop giggling and doitt-doitting when you're driving!!! ohhh, hello rock wall... Learning to feel what your car's limits are is the single most important thing. The communication and feedback the car gives you is absolutely paramount. As a passenger I can tell when LordWorm's brakes have started to fade, unfortunately his tyres don't give much warning. But this is typical of some tyres.

Last edited by chicaboo; 25-01-2007 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 25-01-2007, 09:24 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicaboo
I say it's advanced cos we still have our car's in 1 piece!

Just remember, it's worse when I stop giggling and doitt-doitting when you're driving!!! ohhh, hello rock wall...
yeh...chicaboo knows when to be quiet and let LordWorm panic :P

up for some scary high speed right handers? :P
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Old 25-01-2007, 09:26 AM   #18
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Scary right-handers banned to sardine land when I am passenger!
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Old 25-01-2007, 09:52 AM   #19
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The other thing that makes FWD drifting dangerous, is that because they tend to have a centre of gravity much further foward than a RWD, the point of rotation of the vehicle is at a point further infront of the driver than a RWD...

Most of the time, in a RWD, the moment of rotation is roughly the same distance from the front of the car as the driver, meaning the driver feels the car as it is, and can react quickly... Because in a FWD this point is alot further foward, the driver is actually behind the point of rotation, and for any given angle of incidence, the driver feels less of it, meaning the reaction to the situation isn't as great, and it just gets worse...

Meaning if you can catch a fwd getting loose, you'll always be able to catch a RWD, because you get more warning... provided you get OFF the gas, not stay on it like in a FWD...

On bitument, big problem because generally you shouldn't be getting a fwd sideways, on gravel, different story, because such weight transfer and foward centre of gravity actually helps you throw it into corner... The above concept was something i had taught to me when learning to rally, probably the only reason i understand it, was prior to this i had to study balance points, moments, axis of rotation whilst learning to fly...

I'm not sure if what i've said above makes sense to anybody else....
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Last edited by Astro Boy; 25-01-2007 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 25-01-2007, 10:00 AM   #20
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You make some good points there Astro Boy -

Really you shouldn't be getting ANY cars sideways on bitumen... but getting a FWD sideways successfully, and knowing you can hold onto it is a pretty good thrill....not that i'd condone it...but i'd be a hypocrit to tell people not to do it because thats pretty much how chicaboo and i spend most friday nights..haha

I think the biggest point here is that if you want to get any cars sideways, understand the risks..if you want to get a front wheeler sideways, understand that the feedback you are getting is often light years away from what's actually happening...

If you can do it, it'll give you great insight into how a FWD behaves... but I don't suggest anyone try and find out if they can do it anywhere but on a skid pan where there are no guard rails, rock walls, severe drops :P
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