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Old 15-07-2010, 12:55 PM   #1
Kat X
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Engine - is it worth putting a newer one in (non-turbo etc)

Oookay. So I'm a bit sure, maybe, that amongst things wrong with my dear little auto astina.. the head gasket is blown & leaking coolant maybe into the pistons (no signs in the oil, or the coolant, but massive clouds of white smoke pour out the exhaust). The smoke is thick, white, and near constant (I idled the car for 10 minutes and it was continuous, I got nervous and turned the car off after that). It smells a tiny bit like burnt oil, but also like, burnt fur, I guess. It's getting progressively worse- each startup the smoke is taking longer to clear.

Recently I thought it might've been leaking valve stems or stuck piston or whatever. It WAS burning oil before, and would stop once the car had warmed up, that's changed since I switched to a thicker oil, and put new coolant in. The coolant level does seem to be marginally lower then it was when I topped it up. There doesn't seem to be any overheating problems ... yet ... the drive home last night (about an hour) was fine, although it was smokey all the way through parramatta (sorry, locals!). I don't think the car was blowing much smoke on the motorway. hard to tell, it was crazy windy last night.

...
So I got to thinking. I don't really have the money or time right now to go on the hunt for newer astina with lower mileage and less dramas. Maybe an engine from the wreckers would be a good quick fix. I've looked around pickles and ebay, and it seems there are a few astinas with panel damage/storm affected. I don't care about hail damage- my car is structurally more-or-less okay.

Is it worth me trying to source a new engine? Just to keep the auto ticking over till I can get a different ba?

My auto is a P1, aug/94 1.8l. Will other era's fit without drama, or would I be limited to a p1?

Roughly how much does it cost to get a new engine put in?

I was quoted 1,5K for the valve stems (outside the car.. mechanic said he probably would be able to do them with the engine in still). he also said it might not be the problem, and he wouldn't know for sure till he got into it.


Thoughts?
yeah I know it's all super nooby
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Old 15-07-2010, 01:33 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat X View Post
I was quoted 1,5K for the valve stems (outside the car.. mechanic said he probably would be able to do them with the engine in still).
Oh wow, that right there is really overpriced! I bought a full non-genuine gasket kit for my B6T for ~$90 off eBay, and it came with valve stem seals too. To change them you have to remove the head, but certainly not the whole engine... I don't see why a competent mechanic couldn't do this in a few hours while doing a nice job. While the head is off, you would usually replace any gaskets you encounter [if they haven't already been done recently].

But that just deals with valve stem seals and gaskets. If you need new piston rings, a leak-down compression test before visual inspection while the head is off would let you know if more money needs to be spent. Unfortunately by this time, you are at the mercy of the mechanic you've chosen to do the right thing by you. I'm uncertain if your $1500 quote included all this with new head studs and decking. But if it didn't, the price is on the high side. Like, genuine parts from Mazda - done by Mazda, sort of expensive.

If you had a mechanically inclined friend, and could afford a couple of weeks to get gaskets cheap off eBay, you could get away with all this pretty cheap - IF you don't need pistons rings... If you did, you'd be up for a fair bit more work and expense. Which could include - big-end bearings, hone the bore for new rings, deck the head, etc... I don't mean to scare you, but all this could see a couple grand disappear fairly quick. So it really depends on how much you love your car, as to whether you want to keep original engine and fix it. A low motor still needs to be installed by someone, which is usually the same cost again as the engine.

To save opening the motor up and getting gouged on price, I suggest getting a leak-down compression test first to see if you have vastly uneven compression across the cylinders. From there you can more easily make a decision as to whether you want a band-aid fix or a long-term solution.

Gav.
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Old 15-07-2010, 02:03 PM   #3
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chicaboo; Right- it did seem a bit steep. The guy always overquotes and work is normally a lot cheaper then the quote. But still, what's a more reasonable cost for for the stem seals, gaskets, head studs & decking (will have to use the internet to find out what those last two are ) & labour/hours? assuming all goes well..

It's not that I love the car totally, there is some sentiment attached to it cause it's the first car I've owned when i could legally drive (had a few others before it but). It's more that it's the 'family' car.. bought a house recently.. and since the car was running very nicely until the last two months or so i didn't opt to get a new one before buying the house. mistake!

Anyways. compression test- that needs an air compressor and a certain attachment right? Is that something most mechanics would be able to do?
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Old 15-07-2010, 02:53 PM   #4
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If you get a full "VRS" [I think it's called] gasket kit, you will get all the gaskets for the whole engine just about, and the stem seals. Mine was $90 when the AU$ was better, so now maybe they cost $100-120 off eBay? Sometimes they like to replace the head studs as a precautionary measure, they might be $150-200 for quality studs like ARP. I have no idea how much decking would cost, maybe a couple hundred. But then it's cost is associated with other labour costs too, so it's hard to gauge...

Yeah, it's just a hose with a gauge at one end, and the other end goes into the spark-plug thread. While they crank the motor they just watch the blip on the needle for the reading. A leak-down compression test is more involved, but I'm not clear on the details. Just a warning though, I've been told that leak-down tests won't necessarily reveal everything wrong with the head of the motor. There's other things they can do like checking the coolant for gas bubbles some how. Just tell your mechanic you want a thorough diagnosis before making your decision.

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Old 15-07-2010, 03:15 PM   #5
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Thanks Gav

I started the car again and it eventually stopped blowing white smoke, and started (once warm) with the grey blue, oil-stinking smoke. Not good..

Definitely got a lot of questions to ask mechanic (although I'm not so comfortable driving the car now and don't really want to have it towed to the guy).

Might have to go back to my original plan of putting the auto into a shed to use for parts & bite the bullet and get a new one.
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Old 15-07-2010, 03:31 PM   #6
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engine swap will cost about $1K to do (includes water pump + timing belt kit). but then there is the cost of the engine on top of that.

so say you purchase a wrecked ba ($1000/$1500). you have to:-
pay to have the wreck towed to mechanic. ($250)
pay to have the engine swapped in. ($1000)
pay to have the wreck towed to home. ($250)

so $2500-$3000... then you might be able to recoup some costs by selling off parts/panels from wreck...

---

the mechanics quote of $1500 would probably be a full head rebuild + water pump + timing belt kit. best to ask what is included in his quote so you know all the details...

---

if it was me, i'd just source a cheap motor $700ish, (there is currently one on ebay) and have it swapped over. sell the old motor for $50/$100...

last november i got a 130,000km old engine for $150. but it still cost me nearly $2000 as i replaced everything under the bonnet. all outer seals, timing belt, water pump + more i don't remember.
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Old 15-07-2010, 03:51 PM   #7
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Yeah, an engine by itself would be my first choice (saw the ebay one ), and there's another at a wreckers for $650 w/ 3 mos warranty (whatever that's worth )- waiting on more details about it atm.

Anything i should look out for when buying an engine? I don't think there'd be anything, but still.. never hurts to ask.
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Old 15-07-2010, 04:21 PM   #8
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I couldn't find this on the forum (didn't look too hard though..). Are the BA hatch engines the same as the hardtops?

Am I limited to only p1's, or will the p2 & p3 engines fit without fuss?

yep. more noob questions. I got a tonne of them
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Old 15-07-2010, 04:49 PM   #9
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P3 has different injectors, throttle body and intake piping than P1 and P2. Other than that, they are all the same. Just use the originals parts from your car if you were to get a engine from a P3. Although a P3 engine would be better as it should have lower km.

Hatch and hardtop are the same.

P1 94-95
P2 95-97
P3 97-98

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Old 15-07-2010, 04:56 PM   #10
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That's great to know

Thanks so much, you've both been awesome help
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Old 15-07-2010, 05:59 PM   #11
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3 weeks ago I picked up a low k import (60-90k) BP1 from ichiban @ Moorebank $495 comes with 3 months warranty. For the warranty ichiban stipulates that you just need to change thermostat and timing belt.

I changed for peice of mind: timing belt, water pump, thermostat, tappet cover gasket, manifold gasket. Add an oil filter, oil, coolant, fuel filter, air filter, clutch, 2 engine mounts, 2 gearbox shaft seals and had change out of $1k.

As of 3 weeks ago they had another BP sitting there.
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Old 15-07-2010, 06:14 PM   #12
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Alex, noice.
I spoke to mechanic guy & he also advised timing, thermo, pump at minimum too. Their website has the engine still listed. *stoked* definitely going to give them a call tomorrow.

Well, this is starting to look like more of a possibility.. and less like the car is going to the shed..

Did you do the the work yourself?
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Old 15-07-2010, 06:21 PM   #13
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Ask for Scott, tell him the guy with the blue astina refered you.

Yeah i did the install myself, I would definately recommend that you check and replace if necessary the engine mounts, especially the rear, much easier with the engine out of the car.
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Old 15-07-2010, 06:38 PM   #14
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Makes sense- I imagine the mounts wouldn't be in the best nick- the car has 215K on it, and for the first 170K I don't know how it was cared for. I'm guessing.. not well.

Is there anything else you think I should consider if I go ahead with the swap?
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Old 15-07-2010, 07:18 PM   #15
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If you are suspecting blown head gasket with the current engine, make sure your radiator is not blocked and flowing ok. Off the top of my head other than what I have already listed, thats all I can think of.

The only other would be crank front seal, rear main seal and cam seals. In the low k import i bought they were ok, but your mechanic should advise you if needed when he has a look at the new engine.
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Old 15-07-2010, 09:23 PM   #16
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a 2nd hand engine plus timing belt kit, water pump and other minor items that are listed above can range from minimum of $1700 for the whole job up to a maximum of $2500. so it all depends on the price of all the parts and labour of it. if you want your car to last a bit longer just enough till you get a better car then you will have to spend a bit more getting most seals replaced on the 2nd engine. either way you look at it. its a PITA. i swapped an engine last week in a corolla and found this odd squeaking noise.. took me a while to find out that the rings were gone on it and it built up so much blowby pressure... the car runs fine but the wreckers where i bought it from didnt do a proper test on it so now we're sorting out who's going to pay for the removal and replacement of another engine... so what im saying is that it may take 2 days for the swap.. it may take 2 weeks... depending on of there may be problems along the way. im assuming you have a spare car to use while you sort this one out.
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Old 16-07-2010, 04:40 PM   #17
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it cost me about 2 weeks of my holidays to get mine sorted and all the small annoying problems fixed... stuff like leaking pwr steer, aircon, radiator, waterpump... you name it! but it was worth the hard work but now its beginning to slowly leak oil... not a big issue but if you have work done on your engine then you know it will be good for ages once its been worked on...buy a 2nd hand engine and you may find yourself in the same position in 18mths time....something i had to consider also.
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Old 16-07-2010, 07:20 PM   #18
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Very true, tc3- but in 18 months time I don't expect to have the auto still.. so not so much an issue for me right now. did the ring around and found a new engine. The one at ichiban was spoken for about an hour before I called to order it. Crudd. *looks around*


anyway, ended up finding a few other options that I'm pleased with.



Chewyryce; so far i'm looking at a 1.5K start for the newer engine & installation, waterpump, themometer, timing.. and maybe a radiator. we'll see.. It's also going to be in the shop for a week.. so toughing it out in the 121 for now, and fingers crossed, things will work out as smoothly as they can..

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Old 16-07-2010, 08:17 PM   #19
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Kat, sorry to hear about the Ichiban motor, I hope they are getting more in as I will be after another one soon.....
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Old 16-07-2010, 08:42 PM   #20
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Got some bad news there, then :\
I spoke to mikey about it for a while, and he said that the BPs weren't really selling for what they'd want to sell them for, and that was well under their 'normal' pricing. He said there is none due in the next month, that he didn't expect anymore in anytime soon and his distributor didn't have any on hand either (i'm a pita ). I did ask him to give me a call if he gets any more in - I suspect I'll be considering another one in the future too.

I did get a referral from him to another importer, and they have some in stock (well, atleast one. Urp, let's hope it's still there on Monday morning..). Let me know if you want more info

Plus there are a few wreckers with non-imports.. the one i mentioned before is still around, and has 132K on it.
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