nOOb needing advice from those who know stuff

comical_imbalance · 09-12-2009, 11:16 PM

Hi all. I hope I don't get laughed off the boards for this, but you guys were real helpful when my last HU died, so I thought I'd ask for assistance once more.

Here's my "beast".

It has a new Alpine HU, which claims to put out 4x50w. The deck is powering Alpine 6 inch splits in the front, and Clarion 6 inch 3 ways in the rear doors. No amps here. Here's how it looks:

Front doors

Rear doors

My previous car, which my wife now gets to drive, has a similar HU and front speakers, but with 6x9s on the rear shelf. I know that the true SQ enthusiasts would frown on this, but it fairly cranks out some volume and bass, all things considered.

When I did these rear doors, I chose the biggest 6 inch speakers that were recommended, as I didn't want to put anything in the parcel shelf. I need to remove it frequently, so speakers and wires hanging out of the shelf are just a pain.

There seems to be quite a lot of depth available, as the window glass doesn't come that close to the magnets. I had considered trying 6x9s in the doors, but there doesn't seem to be enough flat space to mount them, with the undulating surface, and the door skin itself. I considered making an MDF spacer, but the thickness required would bring the speaker too close to the inside of the doorskin.

I am finding that as I get to a decent volume, the sound is hollow, lacking bass, and starting to distort. Before you ask, I have checked my wiring for polarity, and have done a sound test for polarity. The problem seems to be that I'm just not getting enough bass, not that it is being cancelled due to polarity issues.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. My ultimate goal is to get some decent bass and volume out of 4 door-mounted speakers. I don't want to go down the path of using the boot space, as I need that space for gear.

Are these speakers just crap?
Would an amp substantially improve the sound quality and volume?
If I went for an amp, would I really need to run all new wire as well?

I understand that I will never get booming sound. If it makes a difference, I mostly listen to rock (for want of a better term) music, rather than punchy dance music or r&b.

spenaroo · 09-12-2009, 11:34 PM

sound deadening and reinforcing the mounts is a start

marcs_sp20 · 09-12-2009, 11:43 PM

Hey mate,

You are best running the front splits off a 2ch amp and maybe running it underneath one of the front seats (so you dont lose any boot space), and all you would need is an amp kit, which can be bought for as little as $30 for an aerpro kit at WOW or JB HI FI.

Also running sound deadening (which you can get from clark rubber cheap, or go down the uber expensive route ie stinger) on the inside of the doors.

Hope that helps,
Marc

comical_imbalance · 09-12-2009, 11:47 PM

Noted. Although there is a sheet of dynamat used for each speaker, and the speakers are pretty solid as they are. Sorry, the pics will show that better.

I see that a "proper" install has sound deadening over the entire inner doorskin, which i have not done. That is something I will investigate, although I imagine it is somewhat costly. Given the level of my unhappiness with the sound I currently have, I doubr it would solve my problem, but could be one of many contributing factors to a better over all sound.

Cheers for the advice

**edit. Photobucket is back up so I will add those pics now

70NYD · 10-12-2009, 12:10 AM

what marc said is a good way to go. 50W just isnt enough to give u bass.

comical_imbalance · 10-12-2009, 01:07 AM

Sounds like a fair call.
So if I had a 2ch amp for the fronts, would I leave the rears just running off the HU?

so fresh · 10-12-2009, 01:12 AM

i would say so, your choice really but
splits would always need an amp so they
could be used at their full potental plus
sounds much much better

marcs_sp20 · 10-12-2009, 01:12 AM

basically yes, as they are what you'd call "rear fill"

comical_imbalance · 13-12-2009, 03:10 PM

All good avdice so far ppl.
I went to my local guy who tried to sell me a 4ch amp for $400, then I found it online for heaps less, so I went ahead and bought it. This one
It hasn't arrived yet, and I plan to spend time over the Chrissy holidays putting it in. Would welcome any tips anyone has.
Cheers

Joe Bellissimo · 17-12-2009, 04:35 PM

An amplifier would improve your sound but I'm sorry to say this, those speakers are very low quality. Now I'm going to go out on a limb and assume this "hollowness" your talking about is a lack of midbass and "warmth". This can either be caused, by polarity problems, crossover settings, an inferior speaker design or a problem with the door trims sealing. There isn't much you can do wrong with the crossovers, you seem to have worked out any polarity problems and it would appear you have done an alright job on the install. That leads me to believe that those speakers are incapable of producing the kind of midbass a higher end speaker can produce and this would be true even while amplified. In fact I KNOW this since the Type S is incapable as well.

For all I know the amplifier will bring it to an acceptable level for you but I'm going to be totally honest with you and say I think those front speakers are very low quality and thats the majority of your problem summed up right there.

Astinadroxycuts · 17-12-2009, 04:46 PM

Joe is right their

DavoAust · 17-12-2009, 06:06 PM

i don't quite agree. whilst they arent high quality speakers without an amp you'll never get the power to drive them hard enough to generate midbass/bass. getting the cone deflection to create bass requires more power than most HUs can provide directly, thats why we use amps. hook a top end speaker up to the HU and you'll be in the same situation. for his purposes i think the amp should fix this. you can't expect proper clean bass without a sub

Mad Mat · 17-12-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavoAust

i don't quite agree. whilst they arent high quality speakers without an amp you'll never get the power to drive them hard enough to generate midbass/bass. getting the cone deflection to create bass requires more power than most HUs can provide directly, thats why we use amps. hook a top end speaker up to the HU and you'll be in the same situation. for his purposes i think the amp should fix this. you can't expect proper clean bass without a sub

amen to that brother. GOD HAS SPOKEN now get on ur knee's and kiss his toe's

comical_imbalance · 17-12-2009, 06:59 PM

Cheers to the above 4 members
I will go ahead and install this amp anyway. Davo thinks it may make a decent difference, but perhaps I will still not get what i am after. At least my expectations are a little more realistic now.

Stay tuned for my next threads:
"how the hell do i put this amp in?"
and the followup: "so what speakers should i buy to replace my old ones?"

Cheers for all the info people. You know its a cool forum when someone like me can ask dumb questions, and NOT get dumb answers.

Peace
Viv

70NYD · 17-12-2009, 07:18 PM

mate, honestly u wont notice much of a difference between top end stuff and mid to midlow range equipment at MOST listening scenarios. IF you crank it ALL the way (like in a sound competition, but tht is mainly bass orientated anyway so nt applicble here) and nothing overheats/blows, the topend stuff will be clearer and crisper when it comes to tweeters and a little punchier when it comes to midlevel bass. what dave said applies fully.
at normal listening (not deafening and tinitius resulting) a computer might be able to tell the diference, but a human ear will not. my $120 JL 5x7 (not amped, running thru a bridged HU) sounded same as my friends alpine splits.. when we turn it up all the way and dc the subs, there is a slight difference, but keeping it at that level for any period of time will lead to loss of hearing haha

phildough · 18-12-2009, 01:01 AM

Just to let you know a 50 watt head unit actually puts out about 10 - 15 w RMS per channel. That really isn't enough to properly drive a set of speakers.
If your head unit really had a 50w amp surely you would have to run thicker power cables to it.
I would agree installing a quality amp with about 40w+ per channel of real RMS wattage at 12 V too(not that 14.4 V rubbish) will defiantly improve your sound quality.
There is a lot of BS ratings applied to car stereo power ratings so read carefully before you buy. Buy a know quality brand and you should be happy for years to come.
And it is possible to hear the difference between a cheap speaker and a good one.
The problem is everyone listens to gay pods or mp3's in their cars and straight up your going to listen to horribly compressed audio which kinda ruins the point of having a good stereo in the first place.
Go out and buy an original CD and listen to the difference.
That is if your ears can hear the difference from all the damage caused by your ipods.

70NYD · 18-12-2009, 01:46 AM

yeah thats tru i do have a ipod as the hart of the sound in my car.. but thats because i have over 3000 (all at minimum 192b/s most actually at 320) songs on it.. if i was to make that in to cds well lets say about 150 cds (if each cd holds 20 songs, yeah right) cds are 1411 b/s so its still compressed a fair bit but i cant c myself having 150 cds anywhere in the car, letalone switch from serbian to techno to hiphop to rap to etc song by song to suit my mood
and yeah ppl do tend to overpower the ipod speakers (even the ipod minis which have weaker outbup substantialy) my mate got tinitius from it lol hes a idiot. a good set of headphones can damage ears much more but if one is not carefull

oh and im sorry if i sound defensive phil, i know that your remarks were not aimed directly at me, but i am defending my whole generation

comical_imbalance · 18-12-2009, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70NYD

...but i am defending my whole generation

haha. Hey Phil, I think 70NYD just called you old

But Phil has a fair point. I have a heap of CDs, but most of the stuff in my car is mp3, for convenience. Listen to something like Tool's "10 000 Days", the difference between the CD and a 320kbs mp3 is really noticeable.

phildough · 18-12-2009, 08:32 AM

Last time i checked 34 wasn't young but certainly wasn't old!!

pyromaniac11 · 18-12-2009, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phildough

Last time i checked 34 wasn't young but certainly wasn't old!!

no harm done in checking again, right?
:P just kidding!

Anyway, just a quick query..
for speakers: 6" splits - Kicker or Alpine?
for amps: 4 channel - kicker or ????
for Head Unit: Pioneer or Sony or Kenwood?

Just wondering what would be the best to look at between these options (or if you have one that is an absolute must in comparison ...then feel free to suggest that)

Sorry if this is thread hijacking...not what i intend

09-12-2009, 11:16 PM	#1
comical_imbalance Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Perth Car: sp20 Posts: 38	nOOb needing advice from those who know stuff Hi all. I hope I don't get laughed off the boards for this, but you guys were real helpful when my last HU died, so I thought I'd ask for assistance once more. Here's my "beast". It has a new Alpine HU, which claims to put out 4x50w. The deck is powering Alpine 6 inch splits in the front, and Clarion 6 inch 3 ways in the rear doors. No amps here. Here's how it looks: Front doors Rear doors My previous car, which my wife now gets to drive, has a similar HU and front speakers, but with 6x9s on the rear shelf. I know that the true SQ enthusiasts would frown on this, but it fairly cranks out some volume and bass, all things considered. When I did these rear doors, I chose the biggest 6 inch speakers that were recommended, as I didn't want to put anything in the parcel shelf. I need to remove it frequently, so speakers and wires hanging out of the shelf are just a pain. There seems to be quite a lot of depth available, as the window glass doesn't come that close to the magnets. I had considered trying 6x9s in the doors, but there doesn't seem to be enough flat space to mount them, with the undulating surface, and the door skin itself. I considered making an MDF spacer, but the thickness required would bring the speaker too close to the inside of the doorskin. I am finding that as I get to a decent volume, the sound is hollow, lacking bass, and starting to distort. Before you ask, I have checked my wiring for polarity, and have done a sound test for polarity. The problem seems to be that I'm just not getting enough bass, not that it is being cancelled due to polarity issues. If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them. My ultimate goal is to get some decent bass and volume out of 4 door-mounted speakers. I don't want to go down the path of using the boot space, as I need that space for gear. Are these speakers just crap? Would an amp substantially improve the sound quality and volume? If I went for an amp, would I really need to run all new wire as well? I understand that I will never get booming sound. If it makes a difference, I mostly listen to rock (for want of a better term) music, rather than punchy dance music or r&b. Last edited by comical_imbalance; 09-12-2009 at 11:49 PM.

09-12-2009, 11:34 PM	#2
spenaroo AstinaGT Regular Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: chirnside park, vic Car: 99 mx5 Posts: 407 View Photos By: spenaroo	sound deadening and reinforcing the mounts is a start __________________ what the astina lacks in power it makes up 4 in handling straights are good for fast cars corners are for fast drivers

09-12-2009, 11:43 PM	#3
marcs_sp20 Moderator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Ipswich, Queensland Car: 2002 Mazda Astina SP20 2006 Mazda 6 GY Wagon Posts: 9,769 View Photos By: marcs_sp20	Hey mate, You are best running the front splits off a 2ch amp and maybe running it underneath one of the front seats (so you dont lose any boot space), and all you would need is an amp kit, which can be bought for as little as $30 for an aerpro kit at WOW or JB HI FI. Also running sound deadening (which you can get from clark rubber cheap, or go down the uber expensive route ie stinger) on the inside of the doors. Hope that helps, Marc __________________

10-12-2009, 12:10 AM	#5
70NYD Veni, vidi, vici Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brisbane Car: 1996 BA Hatch & 2005 RX8 Posts: 4,911 View Photos By: 70NYD	what marc said is a good way to go. 50W just isnt enough to give u bass. __________________

10-12-2009, 01:12 AM	#7
so fresh Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: tullamarine,melbourne Car: 92 astina 323 bg & 01 SP20 Posts: 660 View Photos By: so fresh	i would say so, your choice really but splits would always need an amp so they could be used at their full potental plus sounds much much better __________________ oh you hit my spot!

09-12-2009, 11:47 PM	#4
comical_imbalance Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Perth Car: sp20 Posts: 38	Noted. Although there is a sheet of dynamat used for each speaker, and the speakers are pretty solid as they are. Sorry, the pics will show that better. I see that a "proper" install has sound deadening over the entire inner doorskin, which i have not done. That is something I will investigate, although I imagine it is somewhat costly. Given the level of my unhappiness with the sound I currently have, I doubr it would solve my problem, but could be one of many contributing factors to a better over all sound. Cheers for the advice **edit. Photobucket is back up so I will add those pics now

10-12-2009, 01:07 AM	#6
comical_imbalance Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Perth Car: sp20 Posts: 38	Sounds like a fair call. So if I had a 2ch amp for the fronts, would I leave the rears just running off the HU?

13-12-2009, 03:10 PM	#9
comical_imbalance Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Perth Car: sp20 Posts: 38	All good avdice so far ppl. I went to my local guy who tried to sell me a 4ch amp for $400, then I found it online for heaps less, so I went ahead and bought it. This one It hasn't arrived yet, and I plan to spend time over the Chrissy holidays putting it in. Would welcome any tips anyone has. Cheers

17-12-2009, 04:35 PM	#10
Joe Bellissimo Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: lol Car: lol Posts: 18	An amplifier would improve your sound but I'm sorry to say this, those speakers are very low quality. Now I'm going to go out on a limb and assume this "hollowness" your talking about is a lack of midbass and "warmth". This can either be caused, by polarity problems, crossover settings, an inferior speaker design or a problem with the door trims sealing. There isn't much you can do wrong with the crossovers, you seem to have worked out any polarity problems and it would appear you have done an alright job on the install. That leads me to believe that those speakers are incapable of producing the kind of midbass a higher end speaker can produce and this would be true even while amplified. In fact I KNOW this since the Type S is incapable as well. For all I know the amplifier will bring it to an acceptable level for you but I'm going to be totally honest with you and say I think those front speakers are very low quality and thats the majority of your problem summed up right there.

17-12-2009, 04:46 PM	#11
Astinadroxycuts Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Australia Car: 93 323 Astina - Toyota Celica GT4 Posts: 211	Joe is right their

17-12-2009, 06:06 PM	#12
DavoAust Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Brisbane Car: Red '93 3000GT / Black '08 Ninja 250R Posts: 2,930 View Photos By: DavoAust	i don't quite agree. whilst they arent high quality speakers without an amp you'll never get the power to drive them hard enough to generate midbass/bass. getting the cone deflection to create bass requires more power than most HUs can provide directly, thats why we use amps. hook a top end speaker up to the HU and you'll be in the same situation. for his purposes i think the amp should fix this. you can't expect proper clean bass without a sub __________________ Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you. '97 1.8L Hardtop '93 3.0L TT 3000GT

17-12-2009, 06:59 PM	#14
comical_imbalance Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Perth Car: sp20 Posts: 38	Cheers to the above 4 members I will go ahead and install this amp anyway. Davo thinks it may make a decent difference, but perhaps I will still not get what i am after. At least my expectations are a little more realistic now. Stay tuned for my next threads: "how the hell do i put this amp in?" and the followup: "so what speakers should i buy to replace my old ones?" Cheers for all the info people. You know its a cool forum when someone like me can ask dumb questions, and NOT get dumb answers. Peace Viv

17-12-2009, 07:18 PM	#15
70NYD Veni, vidi, vici Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brisbane Car: 1996 BA Hatch & 2005 RX8 Posts: 4,911 View Photos By: 70NYD	mate, honestly u wont notice much of a difference between top end stuff and mid to midlow range equipment at MOST listening scenarios. IF you crank it ALL the way (like in a sound competition, but tht is mainly bass orientated anyway so nt applicble here) and nothing overheats/blows, the topend stuff will be clearer and crisper when it comes to tweeters and a little punchier when it comes to midlevel bass. what dave said applies fully. at normal listening (not deafening and tinitius resulting) a computer might be able to tell the diference, but a human ear will not. my $120 JL 5x7 (not amped, running thru a bridged HU) sounded same as my friends alpine splits.. when we turn it up all the way and dc the subs, there is a slight difference, but keeping it at that level for any period of time will lead to loss of hearing haha __________________ Last edited by 70NYD; 17-12-2009 at 07:21 PM.

18-12-2009, 01:01 AM	#16
phildough Banned Join Date: May 2006 Location: Brisneyland, Queensland Car: 2002 Mazda Frankenstina Posts: 2,868 View Photos By: phildough	Just to let you know a 50 watt head unit actually puts out about 10 - 15 w RMS per channel. That really isn't enough to properly drive a set of speakers. If your head unit really had a 50w amp surely you would have to run thicker power cables to it. I would agree installing a quality amp with about 40w+ per channel of real RMS wattage at 12 V too(not that 14.4 V rubbish) will defiantly improve your sound quality. There is a lot of BS ratings applied to car stereo power ratings so read carefully before you buy. Buy a know quality brand and you should be happy for years to come. And it is possible to hear the difference between a cheap speaker and a good one. The problem is everyone listens to gay pods or mp3's in their cars and straight up your going to listen to horribly compressed audio which kinda ruins the point of having a good stereo in the first place. Go out and buy an original CD and listen to the difference. That is if your ears can hear the difference from all the damage caused by your ipods.

18-12-2009, 01:46 AM	#17
70NYD Veni, vidi, vici Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brisbane Car: 1996 BA Hatch & 2005 RX8 Posts: 4,911 View Photos By: 70NYD	yeah thats tru i do have a ipod as the hart of the sound in my car.. but thats because i have over 3000 (all at minimum 192b/s most actually at 320) songs on it.. if i was to make that in to cds well lets say about 150 cds (if each cd holds 20 songs, yeah right) cds are 1411 b/s so its still compressed a fair bit but i cant c myself having 150 cds anywhere in the car, letalone switch from serbian to techno to hiphop to rap to etc song by song to suit my mood and yeah ppl do tend to overpower the ipod speakers (even the ipod minis which have weaker outbup substantialy) my mate got tinitius from it lol hes a idiot. a good set of headphones can damage ears much more but if one is not carefull oh and im sorry if i sound defensive phil, i know that your remarks were not aimed directly at me, but i am defending my whole generation __________________ Last edited by 70NYD; 18-12-2009 at 01:48 AM.

18-12-2009, 08:32 AM	#19
phildough Banned Join Date: May 2006 Location: Brisneyland, Queensland Car: 2002 Mazda Frankenstina Posts: 2,868 View Photos By: phildough	Last time i checked 34 wasn't young but certainly wasn't old!!

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode