Coilover suspension vs. Replacement suspension parts

[Astro Boy]

twiggy... as if its the first time!!!

savvy... seriously, dude, its a bit of a wank thinking about different specific driveways when choosing your springs... my first instinct is compensating, but then i never really konw what's going on anyway!

[Rupewrecht]

I've had the height adjustability for years and it's true, you don't really use it. But at the time i was entering mine into a few cars shows so it was nice to be able to sit it on the bumpstops.

I think that coilovers can be just as good as a set of matched springs and shocks. I've had koni yellows and the eibach springs for a while and it's a much much better ride than Kings and (aus) KYBs.

[chicaboo]

Originally Posted by Rupewrecht

I've had koni yellows and the eibach springs for a while and it's a much much better ride than Kings and (aus) KYBs.

THANK YOU! Finally someone who knows...

[Noble323]

OKAY !

Now i kinda understand coilovers, i thought it was another name for "springs" anyways - so adjustable shocks & springs is basically the same as coilover suspension ? or ? cause both can be lowered or higher ? or am i just making that up ? lol

Just give me and others a better understanding

[Astro Boy]

Sort off... generally (but not always) coilovers will have the shock 'upside down' so that the shaft is as big as posible, thus making it stronger, and more precise... that said, i DON'T have coilovers in the rally car, yet my Bilstein Inserts are a massive 44mm... so like we've said, coilovers aren't necessarily better...

Coilovers generally have height adjustment, and coilovers make the provision for remote cannisters easier... Coilovers almost all the time use flat bottom springs, making a progressive spring, truly progressive, whereas most shocks will use a contoured spring plate, which has the disadvantage of 'binding' up a spring if not installed properly, or if using strut tops with insificiant pivot...

It comes down to adjustment, something which unless you've got the time and place (ie. regular motorsport) to experiment properly, coilovers are a complete waste of money when compared to a properly matched set of decent shocks/springs...

Especially when you consider that alot of the top brand struts make an adjustable shock anyway, either internal or external, then coilovers aren't really worth the dough, and if you're needing to play with things that adjustable shocks can't do like 'high speed bump and damping' then either you don't have a clue and have far too much money, or you're seb loeb looking for that last 1/1000 per monte carlo km....

Buy decent springs, ie Dobinson or eibach etc. and top quality shocks, and there's no reason to ever be playing with settings, even for a daily driver that gets weekend motorsport, learn how to drive first, and unless you're the best driver you can be stop worrying about things like shock settings FFS...

I had a grass motorkhana on the weekend, in which I entered my AWD One Tonner Commodore... no i couldnt drive the thing for sh!t (mainly cause its a two tonne understeering boat), i was playing with things like tyre pressures and traction control, yet when i asked a mate of mine (who happens to drive Car 4 in the Holden Stormriders), to have a go in it, he went out and set the 2nd fastest time on this particular test in a car he'd never driven... Next test out, i went out and set the fastest time....

Moral... just learn to drive the fcuken car, even i'd forgotten that, and i've got a state driving title to my name, more than most of you have...

Of course if your car is all show and no go, or if you're too scared to race your car properly, then ignore eveything i've said above and go buy those fully sik decked coilovers anyway...

[Savvyfx]

What shock and spring would you personally recommend? And how much will it set me back. To be honest, I'm just going to buy the springs first, because my car is jacked and looks weird rolling on 18" s. But I don't want a massive drop. I still like a bit of gap between the arches and the wheel. I think it looks ugly when it's "dumped".

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by Savvyfx

What shock and spring would you personally recommend? And how much will it set me back. To be honest, I'm just going to buy the springs first, because my car is jacked and looks weird rolling on 18" s. But I don't want a massive drop. I still like a bit of gap between the arches and the wheel. I think it looks ugly when it's "dumped".

Nahhh, roll your guards and dump it on its arse

[Rupewrecht]

Originally Posted by Noble323

OKAY !

Now i kinda understand coilovers, i thought it was another name for "springs" anyways - so adjustable shocks & springs is basically the same as coilover suspension ? or ? cause both can be lowered or higher ? or am i just making that up ? lol

Just give me and others a better understanding

just to clarify

Adjustable Springs + Adustable Shocks:
- an adjustable spring that can have the physical height raised - moving it up and down the body of the shock


- an adjustable shocks means the damping (bound/rebound) characteristics can be changed by adjusting something on the shock externally. These are sometimes height (or perch) adjustable but not in the case of Astinas






Coilover
The same thing, but it comes as a matched/one piece package. Usually has an adjustable camber mount at the top, unlike the above which will use your standard strut tops

[Astro Boy]

Originally Posted by Savvyfx

What shock and spring would you personally recommend?

Springs? I keep saying Dobinson... but everyone keeps looking at me funny. Made in QLD, They're a 'true' progressive spring, their lowered spring is lowered with respect to performance, not looks. They're the spring behind a alot of 'name' brand springs, ie. Whiteline and MRT are good examples...

Shocks? Depends on what you want, i'm not really in a position to say, as my requirements generally differ substantially from other people. For your *average* road car aus KYB's are fine, and for the price, can't be beaten. Further up the scale you can go Koni Yellow or Red, (though i'm not a big Koni Fan), look at what bilstein have, if they don't make shocks, speak to a decent suspension place and see if you can modify your existing ones to take inserts...

[twilightprotege]

and dont forget there is no one best spring/shock/coilover for every situation and every car....

[project.r.racing]

Originally Posted by twilightprotege

camber adjust - how often would you change the camber?

run 0 degree on street for minimal tyre wear, run 2 degrees in competion on front for max grip

Originally Posted by twilightprotege

also pillow ball upper mounts adjust camber so you dont need to adjust it twice

wrong, not all ball mounts have the camber adjustable feature.

Originally Posted by twilightprotege

ok, what i was trying to point out is that if a shock has the same rebound etc as a coilover shock and the spring rates are the same, both will handle EXACTLY the same.

agreed as in previous posts, whats the argument?

Originally Posted by twilightprotege

the other point i was trying to make clear is that if you get adjustable shocks and the same spring rate springs, the only advantage coilovers have over a traditional setup is ride height. for the average joe, coilovers are way over the top. how often have you changed the ride height ryan?

i have adjusted the height 4 times in whatever time i've had these fitted, once in the front to balance the front, once in the rear to balance the rear, then the rears up 10mm for competion and then down 10mm after competion.

ryan

[twilightprotege]

0 degrees on the street isnt the right camber for maximum tyre wear, 2 degrees positive isnt enough for maximum handling for competition

so what else does a pillow ball upper mount do if it doesnt allow you to adjust camber?

was trying to point out coilovers arent necesarily the best thing to get like you have been making out.

balancing the ride height doesnt count as adjusting the height. have you adjusted them since? and my point again is if you dont compete you wouldnt change the ride height.

[twilightprotege]

woops, mis- type. 2 degrees negative isnt enough for maximum handling for competition. need sleep.

[project.r.racing]

Originally Posted by Astro Boy

It comes down to adjustment, something which unless you've got the time and place (ie. regular motorsport) to experiment properly, coilovers are a complete waste of money when compared to a properly matched set of decent shocks/springs...

agreed - but then i'll be in more motorsport event regularly now.

Originally Posted by Astro Boy

Moral... just learn to drive the fcuken car, even i'd forgotten that, and i've got a state driving title to my name, more than most of you have...

whats happens when you start driving the wheels off you fully sik and soft whiteline/king springs and then want more from your car?

Originally Posted by Astro Boy

Of course if your car is all show and no go, or if you're too scared to race your car properly, then ignore eveything i've said above and go buy those fully sik decked coilovers anyway...

my car ain't for show, and i ain't scared to race it properly, and i've ignored you so far. should i take offence to this paragragh greg?

ryan

[project.r.racing]

Originally Posted by twilightprotege

so what else does a pillow ball upper mount do if it doesnt allow you to adjust camber?.

its aball mount, it's there toflex betta that the stock rubber mount when car rolls/moves under action. my rear ball mount is only just that, a ball mount, no camber adjustment. (egg on face sorry twiggy on that one.)

Originally Posted by twilightprotege

was trying to point out coilovers arent necesarily the best thing to get like you have been making out..

cheers for saying it for the 4th time.

Originally Posted by twilightprotege

balancing the ride height doesnt count as adjusting the height. have you adjusted them since? and my point again is if you dont compete you wouldnt change the ride height.

sorry but you asked how many times i've adjusted it, so i told you. if i adjusted the height, then it counts as a adjustment.

ryan

[twilightprotege]

well i didnt know pillow ball upper mounts allow the suspension to flex better :S

and you do know that a pillow ball is just a spherical bearing right?

[project.r.racing]

yup i know that

sorry twig - wrong choice of words from me regards flexing... it allows the suspension to turn along with the steering etc and also move in any direction.

how about if i admit the coilovers are one of the best suspension set-ups going around and that other set-ups are comparable.

will this stop all the jealous agreements from everyone?

ryan

[twilightprotege]

well i'm jealous - afterall they arent yours.

i'm not having a go at coilovers, afterall i will be getting them for the rear in my crx, what my main go is that you say how amazing they are, and all you're comparing them to is (admitted) a very worn shock shock with springs that are in no way at all suited to them. maybe you should try good quality adjustable shocks with your kings and then give a good comparison? maybe they are better because your car has no upgraded sway bars nor chassis strengthening? it is quite easy to get too firm springs (coilover and other) and go backwards in handling

[LordWorm]

This conversation is shocking... (oh i know...i couldnt resist...teehee)

[Rupewrecht]

Originally Posted by deejayryry

yup i know that

sorry twig - wrong choice of words from me regards flexing... it allows the suspension to turn along with the steering etc and also move in any direction.

how about if i admit the coilovers are one of the best suspension set-ups going around and that other set-ups are comparable.

will this stop all the jealous agreements from everyone?

ryan

It's got nothing to with jealousy. I've had just as good a setup for years. I've also had JICs. It's that you're saying they're the best without experiencing what you're dissing. I've tried to stay out of this thread for a while as it's annoyed me, but...

You haven't had your car with a quality set of matched springs and shocks - you've gone stright from a worn stock shocks (from what i've read) and kings to coilovers! Of course they're going to be light years ahead.

Look, you've got JICs and they are pretty good. But you don't know that a set of decent springs and an adjustable shock would be just as good.

/end rant

i'm sure i'll get flamed for this but bring it on