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Old 22-10-2007, 01:14 PM   #21
twilightprotege
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come on gav...

1) microtech does read every single sensor it needs to. So does haltech, motec etc... fact is, on the BJ, you'd lose the water temp which ever way you went. There is no way you can have 2 things reading off the same probe without major stuffing around. Its something that you will encounter with every single after market engine management system. Luckilly some cars have more than one water temp sensor - so you can leave teh one you need to leave for the dash gauge plugged in, and hijack another one. BJ unfortunately, no... but then again you can always buy a second sensor

2) your altenator issue has been solved - its purely to do with how the J48 was wired from mazda - meaning we couldn't follow the americano instructions for powering the microtech without causing the car to have a dummy spit. By grabbing ignition power straight off the ignition barrel, the problem is non-existant.

3) TPS isn't/shouldn't be used to control fuel if you are tuned with MAP. TPS on a MAP tune, is purely there to determine when to switch to the idle maps, and when to ramp fuel up for huge pedal movement (pump settings on microtech - its used to smooth out the transition from one map to another). I can pull my TPS off and burn no more fuel while cruising. It'll burn more at idle, but so would have Rupe's wolf.

4) A well tuned microtech will be within 20km per tank vs a well tuned anything else. Mapping points have little or nothing to do with major movements in fuel economy - all ecu's interpolate points between maps. a 32x32 interpolates between smaller gaps in the rev range, which can lead to some additional fine tuning, but the difference is marginal. 750kms to a tank in my car on a long cruise... still miles above what you could have ever gotten with the standard ECU.

5) aftermarket engine management does not affect reliability once its all installed and tuned and running. I have not had my car off the road for an ECU related issue since i installed the thing. appart from a slight lurch on fuel map transitions, and a slightly higher idle, it drives like normal.

6) self learning engine management is pointless imo. If you want self learning, keep the stocko. Why pay $1500 for management to hand all the control back to a computer? the whole POINT is to gain control over the fuel and timing. If you can't tune it, take it somewhere that can.


but in terms of ems reliability - no unit is faultless, however i've had my lt8s for years and have never had any microtech related issue.
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Old 22-10-2007, 01:50 PM   #22
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Yeah, that's great to know... And the title of the thread is "Microtech opinions...". So several ppl have their's (opinions), and now you have offered your's.
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Old 22-10-2007, 02:24 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by twilightprotege View Post
come on gav...
It's not just Gav who's seen downsides to Microtechs. I'm not a fan, and I'd probably buy something else if I was shopping for an ECU in that price bracket. But they are well supported by tuners - possibly becuase their price point gets them out there, possibly becuase there's a lot money to be made around the "microguess" title. Either way the Microtechs now are a far far cry from teh really early onces which I'm pretty sure the microtech guys themselves would say were a little less than good.

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1) microtech does read every single sensor it needs to. So does haltech, motec etc... fact is, on the BJ, you'd lose the water temp which ever way you went. There is no way you can have 2 things reading off the same probe without major stuffing around. Its something that you will encounter with every single after market engine management system. Luckilly some cars have more than one water temp sensor - so you can leave teh one you need to leave for the dash gauge plugged in, and hijack another one. BJ unfortunately, no... but then again you can always buy a second sensor
Water temp is a given with just about all ECUs due to the parallel load issue (it's a very simple resistance circuit). Reading sensors is one thing, but I believe the biggest hassle with Microtech over the years has been their management of idle control hardware. In part I feel that this is related to the development years of Microtech where they worked almost exclusively building products to run big HP drag rotors. They catered for a very specific market and got a big name for themselves. However big power rotors and their owners are generally willing to accept cold and hot start problems, high idles that cannot adequaltey compensate for dynamic idle loads (A/C cutting in for example) and so forth. In those areas Microtech is about 5 years behind other systems. Sure you can make a Microtech start and idle but it always seems to be a battle to get an OEM level of low rpm performance.

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2) your altenator issue has been solved - its purely to do with how the J48 was wired from mazda - meaning we couldn't follow the americano instructions for powering the microtech without causing the car to have a dummy spit. By grabbing ignition power straight off the ignition barrel, the problem is non-existant.
In any vehicle, an IGN-On feed is the same whether it's at the key or up in the dash loom or the engine bay. It sounds more like a wiring diagram wasn't used and some guesswork done. Probably picking up power from the circuit opening relay on a circuit where it will only power during cranking and engine run. In general getting power (even for "sense" functions from the key barrel is a bad bad thing. Go for the main power wiring not the trigger circuit for the main wiring..

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3) TPS isn't/shouldn't be used to control fuel if you are tuned with MAP. TPS on a MAP tune, is purely there to determine when to switch to the idle maps, and when to ramp fuel up for huge pedal movement (pump settings on microtech - its used to smooth out the transition from one map to another). I can pull my TPS off and burn no more fuel while cruising. It'll burn more at idle, but so would have Rupe's wolf.
TPS on a complete well designed setup is critical to getting maximum driveability as it's the only TRUE way to measure the drivers input at a source. In Dans case the BP 1.8L N/A TPS does only detect idle, not-idle and Wide-Open-Throttle so the point is moot. However it is important to note that the car still ran well and ran hard despite the loss (out of range) of an input. Starting was a little difficult though.

TPS comes into it's own becuase you can combine the MAP or airflow measurements and rpm with the TPS data and derive load, anticipation of load/unload and respond accordingly. It improves responsivness of the ECU tune which can benefit driveability and economy. It has zero bearing on power output per %tage throttle position/rpms though which is why generally it's ignored for race and all power solutions.


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4) A well tuned microtech will be within 20km per tank vs a well tuned anything else. Mapping points have little or nothing to do with major movements in fuel economy - all ecu's interpolate points between maps. a 32x32 interpolates between smaller gaps in the rev range, which can lead to some additional fine tuning, but the difference is marginal. 750kms to a tank in my car on a long cruise... still miles above what you could have ever gotten with the standard ECU.
Not all ECUs dynamically interpolate. Interpolation is a fairly new function in the past few years for lowend aftermarket gear. Previously they relied upon having enough "fat" tuned into each map points. The smaller gap between map points the less a tuner had to compensate for changes between map points. It's not much, but with say 16 load points a BP in street trim will have a map point every 500rpm. So each point would be set based on the upper portion of the map point range. ie if you were tuning the block from 4500rpm to 5000rpm you'd do it to get safe A/Fs at the 4900rpm mark even if it made the 4600rpm point rich. It was the only way to keep an engine safe. It does mean the tune is not always goignt o deal with engine charateristic changes that well such as "coming into cam".

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Originally Posted by twilightprotege View Post
5) aftermarket engine management does not affect reliability once its all installed and tuned and running. I have not had my car off the road for an ECU related issue since i installed the thing. appart from a slight lurch on fuel map transitions, and a slightly higher idle, it drives like normal.
You're lucky - no matter what the ECU is there's usually a few occasionaly glicthes that crop up either with the tune first time out or with the wiring. It can be a complex job and quite often tuners and installers are flying by the seat of their pants when dealing with less mainstream cars like ours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twilightprotege View Post
6) self learning engine management is pointless imo. If you want self learning, keep the stocko. Why pay $1500 for management to hand all the control back to a computer? the whole POINT is to gain control over the fuel and timing. If you can't tune it, take it somewhere that can.
Self learning has a lot of place in the aftermarket industry... Self learning will allow an 80-90% quality tune be built through driving before hitting the dyno for the final trimming. Self tuning also shows that the ECU is well developed enough to effectively respond to it's inputs and maintain a safe A/F ratio and ignition timing under all circumstances within normal parameters. If a sensor goes out-of-range the ECU simply cuts the fun so to speak, safeguarding the motor.
Self learning can be configured to target set A/F points under constant throttle and under various drive cycles such as acceration. This is exactly what a decent factory ECU can do as you say, however YOU have control of those targets and tolerances. The ECU will get the average owner to a ppint where they can drive the car around, get it to the shops and back and run a motor in etc all before loading it up on the dyno for final tweaks. It cuts down dyno time required as the tunes are quickly checked through the rev range and then tweaked, not built in 1000, 500, 250, 125 rpm increments.


Quote:
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but in terms of ems reliability - no unit is faultless, however i've had my lt8s for years and have never had any microtech related issue.
Agreed and I don't think others would argue too much, however there's a lot more stories out there about low quality microtechs than others. But that could also be low quality installers which in my opinion is the bigger problem, it's easier to get some poor wiring to set a car on fire than it is for an electronic module in a sealed case to ignite and then burn out of it's casing and trash the car...

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Old 22-10-2007, 04:16 PM   #24
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I havent had any issues with the unit itself.

i have issues with the fuses blowing but thats a quick fix and that was b4 B3 did the conversion too.

I did have a fire though.. and that was something to do with the re wiring that was done and what not. No idea how it happened but far out, it wasnt fun!
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Old 22-10-2007, 04:18 PM   #25
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I did have a fire though.. and that was something to do with the re wiring that was done and what not. No idea how it happened but far out, it wasnt fun!
WTF??? When??? What caused the fire???

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Old 22-10-2007, 04:19 PM   #26
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Yes, i have had 16 fuses blow and a interior fire. Had to replace dash and all the carpet and the passenger door card/skin.
Just a quickie?

Is this the same Microtech you had installed by B3M and raved about or an earlier incident?

Either way 16 fuses and then a fire either means virtually a dead short in the Microtech, or a wiring fault. More than likely wiring fault due to poor installation, probably picked up a wrong wire somewhere and generates a dead short under some output condition... *shrugs* Even qualified auto-sparkies make mistakes... (ie I spent an hour yesterday removing a ring of power wiring that linked +12v to two sides of a fuse holder!) About 30cm of wiring that ran in a circle!

If it was B3 then at least as an authorised Microtech seller/installer they'd have it all covered with insurance and stuff so it's just inconvenience ...



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Old 22-10-2007, 04:54 PM   #27
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Gav:

2 odd weeks ago now..

it was about $280 to fit all the things the melted.. not to mention i have 3rd burns on my left hand..

QUOTE=Aaron;147460] it's just inconvenience ...
[/QUOTE]


Yes, something that i cant have... I do 1000kms - if not more a week. I dont have the time nor energy to fart arse round with warrenty crap over fuses blowing.. if the unit fails.. then ill do something
I have a TPS connected but the plug is stuffed. When it kept falling off all the time (its strapped on now) the car would drop revs at idle and then pick up again about 3 times before it died.. then it wouldnt restart. it would crank over only to die in seconds. I am no expert on MT's and i dont want to be. but i can tell u from EXPERIENCE, not THEORY based BULL****, that the TPS does count.

Something sorted out when i was driving, I know that for sure. What i cant understand is why my fuel pump wiring was dodgie.. something that should have been bought to attention with the 8 other things (and growing) that should have been picked up when the car was stripped. i eventually took it to a auto elec who i payed to fix up the wiring - it took 1 hour and $60 and they fixed about 6 things. My car, now, runs perfectly.

and yes, evern auto electrians/mechanics can make mistakes - which is why they check things "one time, two times and three times over" right?

Dan
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Old 22-10-2007, 10:26 PM   #28
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Is the car and microtech running now? Or is just repaired & waiting for a new ECU of sorts?

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Old 22-10-2007, 10:52 PM   #29
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my mate had a "dribbletech" in his 4agte corolla... quoted it as biggest piece of crap ever and on the other hand another mate had a ems stinger and was happy with it on his 4agte
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Old 22-10-2007, 11:00 PM   #30
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Microtech still persists to power on and run my boosting byatch

=

Yeah, the MT is still running
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Old 22-10-2007, 11:05 PM   #31
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also on the mt it used to freak out and hesitate at random times so all settings would go wierd and car would be a nugget then suddnely fine again.... and it was tuned and installed properly... go figure.. thats how it got dribbletech as its name
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Old 22-10-2007, 11:11 PM   #32
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YES

I have the same isse.. its like there is a dead spot at the start of the accerator.. then it will kick back in and sorta struggle... :S
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Old 23-10-2007, 01:10 AM   #33
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Hmm, interesting. My good friend has a TX5 putting out 400atwHP and he changed from a Microtech to a EMS when he stepped up his turbo, injectors and cams. He said "I would never look back to a MT.. they are ****"

Its just interesting hearing stuff like that.

What ECU are you going to next, Rodhog?

Yeah that's because. If you look at what a 626/mx-6 /tx-5 Ecu controlled or did controll how it did it etc you need a Motec or something with enough Auxilary functions to make the car perfect.

My Ecu would cut A/C off then reapply it once you have added the Power steerign load and then is would reactivate Emission control. Blah blah. It's silly stuff most of it not needed. If it was auto it ran a two stage fan.


As for the ECU I'm going too. this will sound silly but. I've never heard of it.

I'm the type who goes To workshop - Says Fix this - call me tell me how much and I'll pay you when I pick it up when it's ready. Done. No question No farking around. Just do it.

So The workshop told me the new type of ECU how it's some thing great - controls VVTI type engines with ease and all sorts of other things. I got told the name but it's like gone from my mind.
But it's going to Run my FE DOHC in my wagon. first Effecitvely a FS-ZE in terms of it's requirements - VICS - ignition and fuel A/C - etc.
Apparently it's so new to the market it's not made a big impact yet. But it's cost effective and does just about all the hi -end Motec and Autronic functions.
I can't talk it up as much because I'm proberly only going to be like 3rd customer getting it. Apparently worked well ona SR20 VVT engine in a N14 SSS but it's heaache to install lots of wiring. So I expect a slighlty larger labour bill.
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Old 23-10-2007, 07:08 AM   #34
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Any more info on this alternator problem with the BJII J48? I remember the MTs having touble with charging, but nothing about the fix.
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Old 23-10-2007, 08:33 AM   #35
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Aaron:

I’m not denying that microtech’s aren’t the best at cold starts, but imo I don’t see that as a major issue – my engine is only cold for 2-3 minutes tops before I’m on the normal maps and there are no problems. Also cold starts can be greatly improved with sufficient tuning time - it cant be done in just 1 morning.

The J48 problem is not a simple case of grabbing the power from the main. That wont work. The microtech manual even says to take it from the ignition barrel as it's the most reliable to getting power on and off. This is for the switch on signal. Microtech grabs +12v for power straight from the battery (15amp fuse on a wire, run straight to the positive terminal) to power the unit – but it requires an ignition signal to tell it to turn on, or else it’ll just drain the battery – and to boot, the car wont shut down when the key is turned off. The American instructions, which were used for the first lot of BJ’s that had the ECU installed, called for the use of the ignition trigger wire that was used for the stock ecu (stock ecu operates in parallel with the microtech in the BJ, to maintain control over several things such as instrument cluster which is fully digital and a few other items) – on the early BJ’s, jumping this trigger wire is not a problem, however, in the J48, it would appear that once this wire has power across it, it will hold power even after ignition has been killed - this isn’t enough to keep the stock ecu alive, but the microtech only requires greater than 1 volt on the trigger wire to turn on. So essentially you end up with a problem where the stock ecu will shut down, but the MT wont. If the MT is on, the fuel pump is running, and you run into all sorts of grief. By following the actual supplied microtech instructions, getting the +12v signal wire from either the ignition barrel, or the main relay, the car works as normal (Greg had the same problem as Gav did, and solved the problem by doing this – car has been running fine for over 12 months with the wiring done this way). - Sleepy, I hope this answers your question too.

TPS: a microtech will run without a tps, *however* you will always be on the load maps and will never revert back to the idle map which can sometimes be an issue, and the issue in Dan's case. If you are using a variable TPS, Microtech uses the output to determine change in throttle to determine what the driver is trying to do and add fuel and or timing before the map sensor has a chance to catch up with the change in manifold pressure. This is the “pump” setting mentioned earlier, which is used to respond to large changes in throttle to smooth out transitions between idle, cruise, and WOT maps.

Microtech interpolates between map points. All the LT series do. Incidentally, the limitation of the microtech isn’t the hardware – the firmware isn’t the greatest, but they did the right thing when they went to the LT units and went with some relatively high end chipsets – meaning the capability for upgrades (whenever they happen) are quite large. Whilst it may “only” be a 16x16 ECU, with fixed load and RPM points, the new software (which admittedly has been delayed quite a bit), brings the ecu up to 32x32 mapping points, with adjustable load and RPM points (so us NA guys get some love, instead of only having effectively 8 load points to map against). Having said that, because it interpolates between points, you can still get a fairly solid tune, tunes that pass the “wife test” – which is the hardest test in the automotive industry LT16S has a list of new features as long as your arm, and when it is released, its firmware will be available for the other LT series ecus, unlocking most if not all of these “new” features, bringing a lot of the basic microtech ecu’s on par with other units with much higher price points.

Self tuning: Yes it does have it’s place in the industry, but I still don’t like it – yet. Whilst it may speed up tuning, you are more or less taking control away from the tuner – and in the case of some of the new “self learning” ecu’s I’ve read about will self learn to the detriment of everything else. This is a disaster for consistency – and you are right, is mostly an issue for racers. An ECU that changes the fuel and timing on the fly means there is no way you can put the same run down twice, because the fuel burn is being altered all the time.

Every microtech “issue” I’ve read and heard about has come down to 1 of 2 things. 1 is the tuner/tune, and the second is the installation. Both these issues are issues you will run into with any ecu you install.

Microtech isn’t the be all and end all. But it is one of the most robust units in its price point, and it well and truly punches over its weight. There are some legitimate gripes that even I have with the unit, but they are problems that actually exist – issues with the tune “shifting” haven’t been a problem for years, low RPM issues, well it may not have the fidelity down low as some of the other units do, but its not all that bad – it’s not like we all run around with 2000rpm idles etc! No matter what anyone says, people buy ecu’s for one reason and one reason only, to get more power. The pursuit of power almost always means compromise. Noone buys an aftermarket ecu purely to fix an idle issue – and most of the time the fuel economy gain is purely a bonus.

Dead short – if there was a dead short in the microtech, it would be cactus by now.


Dan:
As per my comment to Aaron, the MT will run without the TPS, however it depends on the tune. I personally like to make my idle maps a little richer for idle smoothness, so when the tps fell off you were staying on the load maps. Not enough fuel and it will die. As we said when you got the car back, you need to get a new clip. We are looking into your list of issues you have provided us, and are committed to making things right. We’ll be in touch soon.


Mischef:
The problem you describe sounds like what microtech calls the “pump” settings. Every single car requires different settings. Mine is, strangely enough, very close to that of what a rotary requires, lordworm’s is totally different again, Dan's is different again. It does take some time to sort the pump settings and can only be done on the road. It’s impossible to get good pump settings from guesswork or previous experience or on a dyno


Rodhog:
There are very few ems’s that handle the “I” part of vvti. I know hondata takes care of the ivtec engines and that’s about it. However most if not all ems’s can handle the lift part of vvtli and vtec. Same goes for the Mazda VICS. My microtech controls my VICS. These systems are generally controlled by a solenoid, and the microtech is capable of operating these with an output triggering on either a specific RPM or MAP reading.


All:
There are a lot of misconceptions about microtechs and other ems’s on the market. But let’s be all honest with ourselves. Why do we want (in simpliest terms) from aftermarket ems’s? If you answer anything but *more power* you’re kidding yourself. For me it’s all about a power to cost ratio, and I’ll stick with microtech to fulfil my ratio requirements.
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Old 23-10-2007, 10:58 AM   #36
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Good stuff. Thanks and welcome back, haven't seen you on the forums for a while.
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Old 23-10-2007, 11:35 AM   #37
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I think the MT is fine for my application. I got a stocko GTX.. nothing special. When i up it all then i will looking in to something more precise.

MT are a decent unit. people that spend copeous amounts on there car.. ross/ryan/rob wouldnt be running the MT unless it was decent. A stuff up by a EMS can be detrimental to the engine/drivetrain.

Yes, there are better ones on the market but as others have said, they are the best adn cheapest in the bracket for $

this is NOT meants to be a argument thread, so stop arguing.. i wanted to know facts - argue somewhere else.
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Old 23-10-2007, 12:41 PM   #38
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you asked what people reccomend for a aftermarket ecu...we all started to say what we reccomend... and also cause everyone in the world doesnt think the same they wont have same opinions...all you can really doo is just research till ya brain falls out...
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Old 23-10-2007, 01:26 PM   #39
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im talking about b3 and gav and arron and stuff
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Old 23-10-2007, 01:29 PM   #40
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im talking about b3 and gav and arron and stuff
Please show me where I engaged in an arguement!
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