Progressive V.S. Linear...Springs

[hks_kansei]

Eibach's Aust distributor is open to group buys, i think they offer a discount for 10+ orders.

I bought a Pro-Kit for $415.25 in a group buy.

[zappy65]

Well, after a brief disscussion with the missus, we have cometo a conclusion that linear all around would be awesome, her response to my "it will be more uncomfortable in the rear" comment was " F$#K IT! i dont sit in the rear anyways"...hahahaha, i love my girl, anyway, im gonna go for a catalogue lovell sports low spring (linear) and go from there, if i find them to bouncy i will get a custom spring rate...you can always sell em if you dont like em...

[Putonyourshoes]

hahahaha champ.
let us know what you think

[project.r.racing]

john - what spring rate are you gonna get? or thinking of getting?

[zappy65]

As per my last post, a catalogue spring rate will do for now but after a bit of experince with my car if it feels to floaty ill change the spring rate...i dont have as much experience in this field as of yet and would like to try different things, your opinions do matter still though!

[project.r.racing]

well what is the spring rate in the catalog then?

[zappy65]

absolutely no idea mate, no one has the slightest idea....hahahaha

[Astro Boy]

I've held back on this long enough...

Ryan/Jon/Dan... Seriously guys, have a listen to yourselves!

You're all trying to outsmart Kings/Lovell/Eibach/Whiteline at their own game. ANY one of those 4 companies know more about springs than everyone on this internet forum put together...

None of you can drive your cars to 100% as they are, yet you're wasting your time on re-inventing the wheel based on "disscussion with the missus" and "Eibach springs aren't floaty like stockos or Kings" and "but after a bit of experince with my car if it feels to floaty ill change the spring rate"...

How about to learn how to drive your cars as is, and get a better understanding of what your car is actually doing, before trying to outsmart spring manufacturers that have been doing it for over 50 years... Funniest thing is most of the symptoms you've been worrying about are as a result of poor shock control, not springs...

In fact, the smartest thing I think that's been said in the thread was "Don't make it handle like a track car unless it is one".

Not one person here (myself included) has anywhere near enough experience to know what random changes in springs rate and setup will do to the final outcome of a car. You need to be able to properly match springs/shocks (NOT ONE OR THE OTHER), and then evaluate what's required for the final outcome.

The bit I love the most is (excuse the sarcasm) "We all love eibach's they're the best, they're not floaty like other cheaper brands that have won world rally championships, but despite the fact that we all love our progressive rate eibach's, I'm going to waste my time getting an unknown quantity in custom rate linear springs, whilst continuing to ride on nothing more than my trusted KYBs, not really knowing what the final outcome is going to be, but just wanting to be different to everyone that's tried it before cause it gets me extra macca's cred..."

Sorry guys, I don't mean to to sound harsh, but that's how it comes across and I haven't heard one thing in this thread that justifies a decision either way in something as important as suspension setup, yet you're all pretty quick to deviate away from what the various suppliers recommend.

In fact the ONLY people who have been 100% happy with their suspension were those that went Eibach (progressive) springs, and Koni shocks. KYB and Lovell/Kings are great on a budget, but unfortunately you're all aiming a little bit too high to get away with KYB shocks and unknown custom springs...

So, moral of the story, be happy with what you've got, learn to drive harder, or be prepared to do the job properly, and not take shortcuts...

You can spend all the money you want on custom springs, but on std KYB shocks you're going to be no better off, and with a spring that the shock probably can't control properly anyway...

[/Rant over] Return to normal programming now...

[project.r.racing]

wtf???

i swear i typed something along the lines of doing some research and testing before making a final decession somewhere???

I have learnt to drive my car as is. I can change my set up to whatever i want to gain the desired result that i want.

i do not understand 1/2 the crap you just typed on that page, i see no relevance to what we have typed? who is trying to outsmart suspension companies? and WTF does KYB shocks have to do with anything?

i am confused???

ryan

[Astro Boy]

KYB shocks because the two people in questions are running KYB shocks... apart from that it was just a rant as a few comments annoyed me, nothing personal ryan

sorry....

[edit] basically the rant was about people trying to gain something by specifying custom 'linear rate' rear springs, when all standard options from kings/lovells are progressive...

[rodhog]

WEll done Astro boy.

I've got to say - What amazes me these days still is how many play with springs and shock combo's - Fine but always forget to do REar or front or both sway bars depending on application.

It's like someone sold you all on stiff springs make car go quick. most of my cars in past mostly have never run anything bar stock spring- maybe the holdens with FE2 or HSV etc but nothing more. I've always made street cars streetable. excludes mx-6, it's all custom for a reason.
Get over islands - not scrap and handle Real roads.

I think some of you should go for a ride in a HSV, BMW M3 and if you can AMG SL55, they are great all round packages but underneath - you can't improve - either way you go backwards massivley - be it lowering M3's are all lowered in sydney it seems and they all handle like crap.

Oh and just got to say KYB IMO and best bought from GSL rallysport LOL
Best bang for buck shock.
I might use Knoi's and Bilsteins but - I get them made to match my springs. I can't do that on KYB. It's why all my other cars have used KYB's.
Most of you won't need it - I don't think alot of you take it to track every fortnight- I go - and 50% It's as a crew member not driver/owner.
For most of you a KYB will do the trick and save you a crap load in cost.
even when the wear out cheaper then rebuilding the Koni or Bilstein for that matter.

[zappy65]

Um rodhog, a HSV is not a good ride, maybe for Holden but nether the less you cant put the astina and the HSV in the same category, you want handling, EVO 8 MR, Nismo 350Z, Mazdaspeed RX-8, even Miata's, or a well done EK9 Honda civic...or the best for corners,,,,THE HONDA NSX-R!!!! YUM!!!! and a M3 not handling well, you havent seen the M3 SSL have you???The only reason that the M3 doent handle well in Sydney is because there are to many pimped up morons who loer it to the point where the engine gets personal with the road and they have dreadful chrome all around it...i know i used to live in Blacktown!!... i agree with the points that greg has spat out....so i decided to buy some stuff off him tonight...ahahahahah, thanks guys...
By the way:
Greg:
Lovell Sports Lows Front Linear
Lovell Sports Lows Rear Progressive
Nolathane Camber Bolts
GSA:
4 KYB Excel G Struts
Mazda:
2 Front Strut tops
should be good for about 200kw atw..hahahaha i wish...

[rodhog]

I can easily put a new HSV R8 with both types of suspension on offer in the same category, remove my mazda Bias and say I'd rather ride and drive along parramatta road ina R8 with the new magnetic suspension option then I would any astina stock or modifyied. For big cars HSV's and FPV for that matter handle and go great on aus roads. You can't find any other Big sized car that does the same. They may not be everyones liking - but you can't discredit what they give you. Most of the Euro's and Jap cars still can't match them for the comfort, and the Ability to throw it around a corner still.

I think you missed the point on the M3 in that you can't improve on it with out a loss occuring . Be it ride - or handling they are that good fro mthe factory.
You answered the point I was making with the number of them out there thinking - if you lower a car and put stiff springs in it, just because it feels like a go cart don't mean it's going to go around a corner like a go cart.

But from the look of what you have bought I think you will be happy with the improvement.

[project.r.racing]

I fail to see what talking about big RWD cars has to do with small FWD cars. it's serves no purpose to what anyone is trying to achieve in a Astina. Most of the cars listed above are newer and pricier have had alot more testing and developement and dollars put into them.

If people want stiffer springs, let them go for it, it's their choice. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. I also swear I typed in somewhere to lower the springs rates unless you wanna try being a wannabe JGTC. Have a look, I think I tried to sell the idea to John to get softer springs...

My springs are stupidly stiff for some Australia roads. But they are matched well with good dampers that are adjustable. And I have every bit of handling upgrades I can acquire except castor adjustment, I'd also like a 22mm or 24mm stiffer rear sway bar to induce oversteer more, (current is 20mm solid.)

I've been lucky, I've gone ricer spec stuff with oversized wheels and stiff springs and gotten away with it. I'm sure in some cases, it would've been the total opposite.

I've done some testing and used different/lower rate springs in my coilovers, (6kg/4kg) and found I still preferred the original supplied stiffer rates. But I could go a slightly weightier oil in the stocks when I rebuild the fronts. Will be alittle more stiffer, but allows for more adjustment in the stiffness when using the damper adjustors.

I only see springs as 15% of the handling job - Tyres, springs, dampers, camber, sway bars, links and an LSD all provide traction to the ground for me. Am I one of those people that, "Make a ride and feel like a cart, so it must be fast?"

I don't discredit anyone or any company as they have been here and done that alot longer than I have. I'll always listen, I'll always learn, but sometimes I like to do a little bit of my own testing, just in case someone hasn't done it before. That come back to learning how to drive the current setup in the car that Greg has spoken about. I'm currently testing the limitations of my LSD at the moment.

Ryan

p.s. mx5s/miatas FTW!!!

[Astro Boy]

*** wakes up and reads what he wrote last night! ***

Wow... I must have had a really sh!tty day!

[chicaboo]

Yay, I got quoted!

I will always wave the banner for Eibach, as I have felt the difference between them and stock, and Eibach's Pro-kit for instance, really are a no compromise street spring as selected by the manufacturer for a given vehicle. I've also felt the difference between stock and King Springs, and on most cars I've never liked them...

However, not every car is the same, and just because I have a big name brand shock or spring on this car, doesn't mean it will work nice on that car... I can't express enough how happy I am with the Tokicos on my Astina, but on my Laser I have a really harsh ride with them. I can make them work for me, but they feel like a big compromise. I am considering getting my old dead shocks fixed up with Koni (adjustable) inserts and be done with the stuffing around.

Incidentally, the King lows my Laser came with weren't that bad. Very comfortable, but seemed to be a bit soft. Overall, it would have been the first time I was happy with King springs. So in this case they worked well, where they never felt right on other cars I been in.

I have progressive all-round on the Laser now, and you do feel it shift it's weight when you corner, but it makes it fun in a way.

Gav.

[Astro Boy]

Kings are actually far and away the best performing spring manufacturers in the southern hemisphere...

Unfortunately Kings don't really suit road applications, but are a VERY GOOD THING ON A RACE CAR.

The Subaru World Rally Team has actually switch from Eibach to Kings in recent months, and seen a massive improvement. Peter Solberg has never liked progressive rate springs, and always stuck with linear rate, but after trying the Progressive rate Kings, he's now switched, and SWRT's recent good form, has been put down to the switch TO Kings FROM Eibach.

Also, the two most respected names in Rally and High Performance Suspension, Proflex and DMS, BOTH use King Springs...

[chicaboo]

Yes, I've been softening my attitude towards King Springs lately. I guess most stock dampening doesn't compliment Kings so well, and that's been what I've been experiencing most of the time.

Getting the springs and shocks to work in harmony wasn't an issue on the BJ, as a company called Progress did the R&D for Mazdaspeed (North America), which is why the Eibach/Tokico combination is so popular on the BJ and works so well. But there doesn't seem to be a resounding thumbs-up for local off-the-shelf shocks/springs for the BF/BG unfortunately.

Gav.

[zappy65]

Hahahaha, silly billy Greg, anyway

Obviously RodHog you havent been to Europe and if you have you missed the good cars and drove a Daewoo around, Do you really think that if you buy a $100,000 sports car you want overall comfort? Ferrari almost always bring out a comfort class and a sports class so everyone has a pick, obviously in Australia the european cars arent as universal. Anyway, if i wanted comfort i wouldnt be lowering the car or putting on some harder springs, and like Ryan said the HSV is 20 years younger then the Astina, its like comparing the FWD Astina to the AWD with all its traction gadgetry EVO MR,....hahahaha, i think the setup that i am going for will be good for what i want, it will lower the centre of gravity a bit, make the car roll and pitch less ( big imporvement in my car) and i should get better feedback...thats what i want, plus i need it for later on and my car still has the 20 year old springs and shock, as you can imagine, they are bad..hahahaha lowering my car will probably make it better!!!..hahahaha:P

[project.r.racing]

Originally Posted by chicaboo

I guess most stock dampening doesn't compliment Kings so well, and that's been what I've been experiencing most of the time.

You hit the nail on the head there. Most people that buy King Springs don't replace the shocks at the same time, of course handling isn't gonna be that great.