Brand Advice

[chipa]

Originally Posted by LordWorm

and Type S, Type R, a combination of the 2, or Type R componants and Type X subs() (wayyy more expensive...but perhaps worthwhile??)
Type S, running the pure RMS numbers, come in higher than the fusion system I had speced out before I went and visited northfield. I know RMS isnt everything..

The Type S actually have much cheaper tweeters and I find that the highs can easily be overpowered with these. Thats why I'd recommened the Type R or X any day. Type R / X .... whats your budget??

[chipa]

Originally Posted by chicaboo

Personally I don't understand why ppl run 2 identical subs off the exact same signal. Wouldn't it make more sense to have an 8" and 12" so you have more repsonse over a greater bass range? Most ppl like 2way door speakers for this reason.

But I only like PC and home theatre audio, so I'm no authority...

Basically the story goes that they cause problems mixing sizes. The best explaination I have for this is because of the different properties each size has, certain frequencies will clash, cancel out and muddy up the sound. I don't believe anyone in SQ has every done very well by going down this path.

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by chipa

The Type S actually have much cheaper tweeters and I find that the highs can easily be overpowered with these. Thats why I'd recommened the Type R or X any day. Type R / X .... whats your budget??

Budget for the full fusion system (which was 2x fusion encounter 12s, funky fusion post processing unit ot give dedicated sub channel and aux in, fusion powerplant componants and powerplant amps x 4 - two monoblocks and two 2channels) was about $3k i think when I last looked.

So i'd say the budget sits between 2 and 3 k, baring in mind that i am not replacing the head unit...

I was quoted $299 each for type S full retail with wiggle room eluded at (i'll shop for better prices), or $450 for the type R subs.

the 5x7s were not quoted either way.

As for tweeters, i'm condsidering disabling hte tweeters in the 5x7s and putting stand alone tweeters in the dash... though there are probably reasons why this is wrong too i spose....

[chipa]

Unless you want to run fully active with seperate amps and custom crossover's or a processor you are better of staying with the alpine tweeters. Also I'd recommend going for the 6-6.5" speakers over the 5x7. Yes they are easier, but for better sound reproduction the round speakers will win every time. Again I'd recommend going that extra step above the Type S, worth every dollar.

For the subs, remember that for that price there are other brands to consider. Whilst bagged because of their good SPL performance, DD are one brand that compete in this lower level. Some of their lines are totally SQ orientated, however they are designed to make use of ported enclosures. DD isn't the only good brand not well known in the Australian retail market, You could also look at brands like Oz Audio or Treo or many others. This is where custom installers come in handy as they have much better experience with these.

For the record the main reason I make bigger mention of Digital Designs is because I use them and know them better

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by chipa

Unless you want to run fully active with seperate amps and custom crossover's or a processor you are better of staying with the alpine tweeters. Also I'd recommend going for the 6-6.5" speakers over the 5x7. Yes they are easier, but for better sound reproduction the round speakers will win every time. Again I'd recommend going that extra step above the Type S, worth every dollar.

For the subs, remember that for that price there are other brands to consider. Whilst bagged because of their good SPL performance, DD are one brand that compete in this lower level. Some of their lines are totally SQ orientated, however they are designed to make use of ported enclosures. DD isn't the only good brand not well known in the Australian retail market, You could also look at brands like Oz Audio or Treo or many others. This is where custom installers come in handy as they have much better experience with these.

For the record the main reason I make bigger mention of Digital Designs is because I use them and know them better

I was going to stick with the alpine tweeters, just not the in speaker ones... get the alpine stand alones...

So you reckon go the Alpine Type R 6.5s for front and 5x7s for rear (where it doesnt matter as much if i recall), then whatever sub/subs fit the bill.

how would you amp such a setup? the V12 amps for the alpine componants then a matched amp for the sub(s)?

i *still* like the point of being able to go back to one company if any part of the system screws up..Whilst they probably cannot LEGALLY go "we wont warrent that cos you are not using a recommended amp blah blah blah", they sure as my bum points to the ground will TRY to use that excuse as a stalling tactic.....things also "look" nicer if they are all from the same place (i know this flys in the face of SQ, and is heading into ricer territory..but there is something to be said for things looking "right")....

[TERRA Operative]

Yo, hi.
Here I am by request.
I'm the guy with the Fusion system LordWorm is talking about (It's actually in my brothers car EF Falcon, was in my Ford Cortina... don't hate me). I'm also an ex sound engineer with a decent amount of experience in both car audio and PA.

Don't hate me for using Fusion , most of the stuff is a few years old (When they used Mil-spec parts in their amps) and is still going strong. The current system sits comfortably at 120dB, peaking at 123dB or so.

There are a few misconception here I would like to clear up.
Ok this is going to be a long one.....

Originally Posted by chipa

The only reason not to mix & match is because you actually have a good reason to stick with a brand. Yes, certain lines from a brand (such as Alpine Type S/R/X) are basically matched for frequency, but that wont mean much once they are mounted in your car. To get it right you'll still need tune the system to suit the interior of your car as some freq's will but louder than others because of mounting position and direction.

Actually the reason to match speakers by manufacturer is not the frequency response, but timbre, or sound of the speaker. The same thing that makes a piano sound different to a violin applies to speaker technology. A Pioneer speaker (excuse my French) sounds different to a Fusion speaker due to the different manufacturing parameters etc. Sure some different brands will sound good together by fluke, but it is much easier to match speakers that come from the same manufacturer. Heck many audiophiles will even go to the lengths required to get speakers from the same batch, even made on the same day to minimise tonal variance and get closer to that 'perfect' system.

Originally Posted by chipa

Actually for SQL a second sub only raises you around 3db... Bugger all for the investment. Go to a SQ comp or have a talk to some top SQ competitor's.

True, but a 3dB difference fequires a DOUBLING in power, so it's no surprise. To actually hear a doubling of volume however, requires an increase of around 10dB Remember that the dB scale is logarithmic, it is also not a fixed constant but rather a ratio, a value of 0db is actually not silent.
See the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

Originally Posted by chipa

More overhead.... Well what you are talking about is headroom,... edit...

What is being talked about is the mechanical limits of the driver. If you spread the load over two drivers, it is obvious that they have to work half as hard as one driver for the same output.

Originally Posted by chipa

More control....This is actually more governed by the sub design and to a lesser extent the amp. The sub's TS specs can help with this. What is comes down to is that subs with better control are often (not always) better for ported design's, and subs with less control are used with sealed boxes as the enclosure helps to control the movement of the cone as the air inside the box becomes compressed.

Not true. it is the stiffness of the drivers suspension, compliance, or 'Qms'. the more compliant the driver is, the more suited it is to a sealed box.
The drivers with softer suspension are more easily controlled by the voicecoil, and hence have a higher chance of reaching Xmax, thus are suited to a sealed box.
Drivers that are designed for an infinite baffle design (subs that need no enclosure) on the other hand, have exceptionally stiff suspension.

It is also interesting to note that generally the higher the resistance of the voicecoil, the more control it has over the movement of the cone, however, due to the lower current flowing through it (ohm's law) it will not produce sound at the same level as a driver with a lower resistance.
2 ohm drivers should generally only be used for SPL applications. Many PA drivers have voice coil resistance up to 32ohms for this very reason.

Originally Posted by chipa

In other words bugger all difference, with 1 db generally being the smallest amount noticable by the human ear

Only in controlled labratory conditions. The generally accepted 'real-life' value is 3dB.

Originally Posted by LordWorm

check out my fullysick tv cabinet with huge tacho and underglow neons

So what are you saying about my cabinet?

Originally Posted by chipa

Even Home theatre it is usless unless you have bad room dynamics as you only have one channel (read: mono) carrying the sub-bass frequency's 95% of the time. mid-bass is of course a different story.

Wrong again. It is proven that 2 subwoofers, placed adjacent inbetween the front main speakers will improve sound quality in the subbass region. It creates a 'wall of bass' effect, where the 2 subwoofers effectively act as one and help to smooth out peaky room response. Take a look at www.avsforums.com for some more info on subwoofers in HT.

Originally Posted by chipa

The only 2 reasons to go with 2 subs is either looks or design problems. Such as you cannot fit a 12" but 2 8" subs will.

EDIT: of course the 3rd reason I just thought of is that you got a damn good deal from that guy around the corner

The fourth reason is called overdrive and overhang.
Imagine a subwoofer being driven with a 1kHz sine wave. For arguments sake, we'll say it moves forward by 2cm, and back by 2cm from 0.
Due to inertia, that driver will not be able to exactly replicate the input signal. As the sine wave reaches its peak and begins returning to zero, the inertia of the moving assembly of the driver will try to keep moving in the original direction before the magnetic forces in play overcome this. This is called overhang. I'm sure you've heard this as a muddy sounding double bass on a 15" sub.
Now take the same scenareo but with 2 subs. We want the same sound level, so to move the same amount of air, we only need to drive the drivers, say, half that of one driver. Physics dictates there will be less inertia due to the lower linear speed of the moving mass, hence less overhang, hence less distortion for the same sound level output.

Originally Posted by deejayryry

big high end home systems use 1 sub... why is that? cos bass/low-feq don't come in stereo.

having 2 subs is only wank factor / ricer style!!!

holy crap i just agreed with andy!!!

Big expensive HT actually uses multiple subs for the reason I stated before (I design the stuff as part of my job). Having 2 subs doesn't mean they are driven as a stereo pair. The mono signal is fed to both subs equally.

Oh, don't agree with Andy, he refuses to boost any of his cars.

Originally Posted by LordWorm

High end, audiophile grade Home theatres have 2, and sometimes 3 subwoofers (a rear subwoofer dedicated to surround effects). if by "high end" you mean "the most money i can spend at JB hifi" then ok, you get 1 big sub...

Exactly, I have installed HT systems that have used 4 subwoofers (2 front, 2 rear). Damn it sounded good.

Originally Posted by LordWorm

you have 1 speaker, you run it at 40% volume. you add another speaker at the same volume, the total amount of volume produced would be greater than the individual speaker, would it not?

Thus if you can have more woofers, producing the same total volume, without outputting nearly the same amount of power individually, would it not mean the subs (and amps driving them) are running more in their comfort zone? further away from the point at which they distort? Makes sense to me.

Pretty much what I said.

Originally Posted by deejayryry

Home theatres have to fill large areas as the room has a large volume etc. Running lots of 8" + 10" +12" subs etc fills the room / area nicely.
Your car is a small volume area compared to an audio room. Remember that bass is not only controlled by volume but also bounce and fill area volume.

Bounce and fill? not in the sub region dude. In a car there is little to bounce the LF sound around. it passes straight through the thin steel walls. Standing waves aren't as prevelant in a car either due to it's small size.

Originally Posted by deejayryry

but running 1 sub can be more controlled and in a smaller / confined area, and work better......

How so? 2 12" subs have as much control as an equivalent single 12" sub. They are built the same, but driven less, see my explanation of inertia for control.

Originally Posted by chipa

Now I'm not going to bother giving references, as I think you should have a more open mind and listen to people who have already shown more actual knowledge than the hearsay you have presented.

Now its your turn.

Originally Posted by chipa

If you're interested I've actually completed a sound engineering course (years ago), but for 3 1/2 years I worked with PA system's as a sound engineer for some of the bigger bands travelling around Australia. These days I do other work but I also help out the local Pro installers with system tuning occasionally.

But you insist that less is more? That's not how it works.

Originally Posted by chipa

Basically the story goes that they cause problems mixing sizes. The best explaination I have for this is because of the different properties each size has, certain frequencies will clash, cancel out and muddy up the sound. I don't believe anyone in SQ has every done very well by going down this path.

True. It's due to that inertia problem. An 8" sub will have far less overhang than a 12" sub. Mixing the two is going to cause phase delay issues. Using a decent crossover so there is no overlap in the frequency ranges will solve the issue, but who has room for 6 subs in their Mazda?

Originally Posted by chipa

Unless you want to run fully active with seperate amps and custom crossover's or a processor you are better of staying with the alpine tweeters. Also I'd recommend going for the 6-6.5" speakers over the 5x7. Yes they are easier, but for better sound reproduction the round speakers will win every time.

I'll give you that one too. I have found the circular speakers to produce a better sound than the oval equivalents. Just that it requires custom doorpods in LordWorm's car....

Ok, I think I've covered it. If anything isn't right, please correct me, with references. It's a bit late and I'm tired etc etc.

Decent post for my first on these forums I think....

Oh, just thought I would add...
The system was run with one 12" sub for a few months. A second 12" sub was added a few months back, and the results were impressive. The sound level increased as did definition. Double bass sounds much better now than the single sub. Placebo? Maybe, but the spectrum analyser didn't lie.

[LordWorm]

ugh...jared knows too much..my head hurts...

see my reasons for confusion? not saying you dont know what you are on about chipa (its obvious you do know somethings of course..and anythings is more than the things i know...)

but I bow to the audiophile/electrician/3d designer anime lord from hell.

hahaha

[TERRA Operative]

You will all bow down to me and worship my army of anime cat-girls.

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by TERRA Operative

You will all bow down to me and worship my army of anime cat-girls.

sicko.

thanks for clearing things up.

i guess it all comes down to what you know and like.. In my travels tonight i've found articles and opinions on both sides... The "less is more" camp, and the multiple subs doing half the work side of things.

Just to clarify... you're not comparing a $300 sub to a $2000 insanity sub.. obviously it'd be better to buy one ludachristly expensive subs than 2 yumchas, because they are better designed and can handle more etc. chipa cleared this up in a pm not long before you posted...

however for the money i'm looking at spending, i am still leaning towards the twins... although chipa's ideas are starting to sway me a little.

Guess i'll go see if some place is willing to setup a soundboard with twins and singles so i can do a direct comparison in the same room (not the same as in a car i know but better than nothing to get an idea of whats what).

[FLiP]

Gees... you just got a lot in info thrown at you... so here's some more...

avoid... (generally...) 2,3 and 4 way speakers...

i have a set of bottom of the range jbl 6.5 inch speakers (woofer, tweeter, crossover setup) in the front and top of the range sony 6x9 3 ways in the rear both running directly from the head unit...

i got the jbls for $200 and the sony (i am aware that the general consensus on sony speakers is that they are ****e... and i can't argue against this) 6x9s for $300... the difference in the sound is insane... the jbls are beautiful and great value (as long as you're running a sub) and i will soon be ditching the 6x9s and running another set of jbl splits in the rear...

if clarity is what you want avoid multiple-way speakers... they might look cool... but its a case of trying to put too much into one unit and you will pay more for it too!

another way to get maximum clarity is to make sure every speaker is amped with a nice BRAND amplifier... alot of people think decent amps are not worth the dollars... i can tell you that no amp is better than a cheap amp!

when choosing brands... look for speciality... that's why i chose jbl for my speakers... all they make is speakers and amps...

have fun shopping

remember... all that matters is that you're happy at the end and not too much out of pocket

[TERRA Operative]

Good point. You want the least amount of crossover points as possible. Every crossover point is introducing distortion, as at that point, both drivers are playing the same frequencies and that same problem as different sized subs comes into play. It's not as bad as that, but the distortion is measurable.
That's why most high end HT speakers are only 2-way systems. Less crossover points = less distortion.

[twilightprotege]

did i mention i like cats?

although all that information is nice and well (i dont refuse to turbo cars - no need to when a 2238cc engine can do 10's), but it still doesnt answer my (main) arguement. which is better - whatever sub you can get for $1000 (assuming greggles sticks to his budget), or whatever 2 subs you can get for $500each. and then add to that, whatever amp you can get for $1000 or whatever 2 amps you can get for $500ea (or 1 x $1000 if you run both subs off the one amp).

we keep comparing apples to oranges. ofcourse 2 subs will sound better.....but what about within greggles budget of $1000????? for example, no body in their right mind would buy 2 supercheap $150 subs rather than an ok $300 JL sub....

[twilightprotege]

i'll add to that - a simplier answer (hopefully from jared) --- if when you went to 2 12" subs you had to sell your single, get back what you paid for it, then buy 2 subs for the same price - would you have still gone to 2 x 12" or kept the 1 12"???

[FLiP]

it would depend on whether you wanted bass quality or bass volume... go two half-decent subs for volume or one good sub for quality...

it would also depend on what you were using to power them...

for example... say you had a 2ch amp bridged to run the single sub... then you got two subs and used the channels of the same amp separately to power each one you would not have enough power to reap the benefits of two subs

so to get best results with two subs you would need a 2x300W RMS amp at least but for a single sub a 2x150W bridged is enough or a 350W mono.

2 subs is over-kill... great for show cars and stuff... but unless you want the world to here your bass line... there's no point

i think it's obvious that i would stick to 1x12" sub

hope this helps...

FLiP

also... it depends on whether you need to carry your woman's shopping or not

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by FLiP

it would depend on whether you wanted bass quality or bass volume... go two half-decent subs for volume or one good sub for quality...

it would also depend on what you were using to power them...

for example... say you had a 2ch amp bridged to run the single sub... then you got two subs and used the channels of the same amp separately to power each one you would not have enough power to reap the benefits of two subs

so to get best results with two subs you would need a 2x300W RMS amp at least but for a single sub a 2x150W bridged is enough or a 350W mono.

2 subs is over-kill... great for show cars and stuff... but unless you want the world to here your bass line... there's no point

i think it's obvious that i would stick to 1x12" sub

hope this helps...

FLiP

also... it depends on whether you need to carry your woman's shopping or not

hangon, its been established that 2 subs, of near the same quality as a single, (that is, say, 2 of the second best in the vs 1 of the best in the range) would provide better quality than the single..

Different when you go into a totally different brand and pricepoint, obviously.

extra sub doesnt instantly mean extra volume, you can still turn the speakers down, you dont have to drive them at insane volumes just because you can..

as far as amping the thing goes, i'm looking if i go down the 2 woofer road, individual monoblocks amping each sub....wont have an issue with power

[FLiP]

well yeah...

but why have two subs if you're not gonna use them... that's all im saying...

quick question... what music do you listen to?

that should help you decide

spend the money on performance mods (that's my advice)

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by FLiP

well yeah...

but why have two subs if you're not gonna use them... that's all im saying...

quick question... what music do you listen to?

that should help you decide

spend the money on performance mods (that's my advice)

Personally i listen to alot of trance and house. The other half is into pop/chart/r&b/hiphop rubbish.


anyway

its been decided
i know what i'm getting now.

And i'm almost certain of what brand and models i'm going for.


performance mods: loud speakers first, so the mrs doesnt hear the quads or the huge straight through exhaust system

[FLiP]

haha... i like your logic

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by FLiP

haha... i like your logic

yes when you want to build a fast 4, without annoying the mrs, you have to be sneaky

[TERRA Operative]

Originally Posted by twilightprotege

i'll add to that - a simplier answer (hopefully from jared) --- if when you went to 2 12" subs you had to sell your single, get back what you paid for it, then buy 2 subs for the same price - would you have still gone to 2 x 12" or kept the 1 12"???

Hmmm. Well I'm not sure. Being me, I would never be satisfied downgrading, so I would live on a diet of water and Mi Goreng noodles untill I could afford a seccond $1000 sub.

But that doesn't answer the question....

In my previous post, I was comparing near enough to equal subs. Posing the question as you have, I would have to consider more what they will be used for. If it was for general listening and music like rock, jazz, classical etc. I would go for the single sub as this music doesn't generally have deep bass but demands high audio precision.
If I decided I like Electronica (dance, trance, hard house etc.) then I would go for the 2 subs, mainly for the higher degree of control with fast beats and potential for heavier bass at high volumes (sik Uleh).

I personally prefer the electronica sides of things, so would probably choose the cheaper subs, albeit carefully so as to tailor the characteristics of the subs to my enclosure shape and car's accoustics to achieve the best sound possible. (remember, even the most expensive sub can still sound like beating wet cardboard if it not in a correctly designed box etc.)
BUT, seeing as my Cortina will be a street driven track car, 2 subs will be too hard to remove from the small boot all the time, so one sub it will be for me. (Sorry Greg ) I'll just have to listen to my brothers 2 sub system when I need to feel my music.