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Old 27-05-2008, 03:38 PM   #21
Orion
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Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Dumb question - is the 1.8L in a BJ a derivative of the BP-ZE or is it a "F" series motor?
It is an "F" series motor - i.e. FP-DE.

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Old 27-05-2008, 05:14 PM   #22
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Dumb question - is the 1.8L in a BJ a derivative of the BP-ZE or is it a "F" series motor?

BP-ZE would open up the option of using a BP-T head (manifolds for BP-ZEs are different to BPT and BP05) on the stock block, running low low boost and just having to sort out a management solution to fuel and time it.

Either way $6K is close to the wire for budget to go from scratch and have legally on the road (your engineer will probably want at least $500, depending on brake/emissions/noise testing required).

You should read up this site about the legal requirements: http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa.../vsb_ncop.aspx

While I hate to be a party pooper it's important to recognise that hanging a turbo in your engine bay and an intercooler on a car that never had either will make you stand out and be a target for defect testing/police/rta/local grandmas etc etc

A.
Yeah F series engine. It is fairly simillar to the 2L FS-DE in the SP20 (essentially a destroked version with less agro cams, though there are some other subtle differences) - anything FS head wise will bolt straight on. So that means there are plenty of turbo kits available (from the "stock" MSP turbo setup, through to hiboost aftermarket kits, and a variety of MAM kits if someone is willing to part with one, which is highly unlikely). There are also plenty of stand alone do it yourself components (obx make a manifold, as do others, to suit T3 flanged turbos and so forth).

I know QLD is a little different to elsewhere, but here you could get away without touching breaks if you are not transplanting the engine (engine transplants require a brake test, OR the brakes off a car that had the donor engine), and emmissions tests are not required unless the engine is older than the chassis (car must meet emmissions for engine, or chassis, whichever is newer). In the past it hasn't been uncommon for people to do conversions up here, and transfer rego, but i'm not 100% sure whether that loop hole has since closed.

Absolutely correct on the "cop bait" bit - but if you do it all correctly, and have everything fully complied, theres not alot they can do to you....you just have to be 100% certain that everything is above board.

the $6k *might* be enough, but it depends on how far you plan to take it. Given that the FP and FS engines have piss weak conrods, and relatively high compression pistons, a rebuild is almost par for the course when boosting one of these engines. But a cheap rebuild, second hand manifold, second hand/reconditioned turbo and a budget ECU, with ebay specials on other things such as BOV, intercooler and so on *could* be done on the cheap. Not that I recommend for a second going that way - but it could be an easy way of getting the car boosted, and you can worry about the nice stuff when cash allows. If you wanted the "good stuff" including cams, head work, valve train, ceramic coated combustion chambers, new garett or turbonetics turbocharger, staino hard pipes, name brand intercooler, oil cooler, upgrades to the transmission, new clutch and so on and so forth, You could very easilly blow twice that budget...

Best bet is to make a list of must have (i.e. the things that you cannot live without/the turbo conversion simply cannot be without), then a list of like to haves (name brand goodies, accessories that are nice, but not absolutely neccessary), get prices for both and come to a compromise.

Theres plenty of stuff on mazdas247 relating to the bare minimum needed to turbo an FS/FP engine - so most of the work should be pretty well done.....just a matter of sourcing some local distributors etc.

One other thing that is almost a must for the budget, is some dyno time with a quality tuner to insure optimum performance, and best possible fuel economy, as well as helping to insure the safe and reliable operation of the engine.
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Old 27-05-2008, 09:02 PM   #23
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personnally i cant see you doing it for 6k to build the motor properly , i spent 10k on mine and i did the rebuild myself ,so if you had to add labour costs add another 2500k
roughly fmic $500 , new turbo $2000 , exhaust and intercooler plumbing $1500+ ,fordge pistons and rings and billet rods $2000 , computer supply install and tuned $2000 , injectors + fuel pump $1000 , gasket kit $140 , block and head service $500 , blue print and balance $450 labour costs $2500
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Old 27-05-2008, 09:46 PM   #24
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personnally i cant see you doing it for 6k to build the motor properly , i spent 10k on mine and i did the rebuild myself ,so if you had to add labour costs add another 2500k
roughly fmic $500 , new turbo $2000 , exhaust and intercooler plumbing $1500+ ,fordge pistons and rings and billet rods $2000 , computer supply install and tuned $2000 , injectors + fuel pump $1000 , gasket kit $140 , block and head service $500 , blue print and balance $450 labour costs $2500
If you do it *properly* it'll cost the earth... but you can certainly do it "on the cheap"... a turbo kit, supplied second hand from a mazda speed protege, a reconditioned turbo charger, a cheap ebay FMIC, etc etc, you could certainly do it for less than $10k

like i said in my previous post, i wouldn't *recommend* doing the entire build on the cheap, but there are certainly places in the build cost that you can reduce your cost.

It really and truely depends on how far you want to push it. If you want a shade over 200whp, and you don't mind living with limited upgrade potential - then you don't need to spend as much money as if you are chasing 400whp.

even if the choice is to do it on the cheap, i would keep a bit of cash up your sleeve over and above the budget amount for unforseen circumstances. When we did the L300 VR4 engine swap, just about everything we needed was there on the donor engine - however we still had to dip into some reserve funds to deal with some of the little problems that cropped up during the project..... so having an emergency reserve of cash is certainly something that should be thought about.
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Old 29-05-2008, 03:50 PM   #25
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Mazda USA did it on the cheap, just ask the customers...

Turbo a BJ 1.8? It can be done and it has been done. BUT be careful not to get too ambitious unless you have plenty of money.

The lesson I learned was make sure you have enough money to do EVERYTHING, before buying ANYTHING. I had a change in work and a lot of unexpected personal things to pay for and then the VICS let go all in a few months.

Now I'm hoping the engine holds together until I can rebuild it, maybe for semi serious NA. I just love the high rpm. Being able to get to 60kph in first gear saves a lot of time from the lights. My driving style and local condions probably don't suit FI anyway(wettest part of the country+no LSD=serious traction issues already). The F box has been flawless so far(157,000km) and I try to be nice to it, but how much torque could it handle from decent amount of boost?

As for police bait, it can be done legally AND discreetly. Use the MSP setup and hide the whole lot behind some fine aluminium mesh which I use to stop the condenser getting clogged up with bugs and damaged by stones. Or paint a FMIC matt black. Use a recirculating bypass valve and use an airbox.

I've still got the MSP radiator, condenser and intake pipes for sale or possible future use. Could even use them with a SMIC and centrifugal supercharger above the tranny. That would be different.
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Old 29-05-2008, 06:37 PM   #26
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I've still got the MSP radiator, condenser and intake pipes for sale or possible future use. Could even use them with a SMIC and centrifugal supercharger above the tranny. That would be different.
bit of a fabrication nightmare....a bar would be needed to transfer power from the otherside of the block, brackets need fabrication...etc etc etc.

doable though...but WAAAAY more expensive than doing the turbo kit - and same if not worse gearbox related issues (boost lower in the powerband = more torque earlier....)
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Old 30-05-2008, 04:06 PM   #27
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That's why it's different! Personally, I'd rather turbo than supercharge, but I have seen that configuration but with an air/water cooler for Hondas.
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Old 30-05-2008, 07:12 PM   #28
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That's why it's different! Personally, I'd rather turbo than supercharge, but I have seen that configuration but with an air/water cooler for Hondas.
if you want different, quad throttles (next to noone has done them) and string the engine up by the balls NA
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Old 03-06-2008, 12:52 PM   #29
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if you want different, quad throttles (next to noone has done them) and string the engine up by the balls NA
does anyone know where to get quad throttles for a bj sp20 or are they ask then run away at the price??
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Old 03-06-2008, 02:18 PM   #30
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from a 4agze and then make up a bracket to suit... mazdaguy01 has done it on here...
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Old 03-06-2008, 03:57 PM   #31
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how much?
for the quads?
and to get it mounted on?
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Old 03-06-2008, 05:25 PM   #32
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I am not god, I dont have all the answers... research before asking...
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Old 03-06-2008, 05:32 PM   #33
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how much?
for the quads?
and to get it mounted on?
prob get a set of 4age blacktop NA quads for change out of $300 (the 4agze didn't come with quads...its a supercharged 4 runner single throttle setup, with a roots blower), and its not a case of just "making a bracket" to suit... - you want the 20 valve blacktop quads for the 2L, you probably want the silver top quads for the 1.8 - i'd have to run the math to work it out for you exactly...but if i had to guess thats what i'd come up with

Then you need to have a flange made, runners installed, remove the throttles from the 4age manifold, mount the throttles to the runners with flanges or weld them on....then you'll want some velocity stacks (trumpets), a plenum to keep it nice on the street, intake pipe work because you'll need it with the plenum. Plenum needs to be made removable so you can run 4 open throttles for awesomeness at the track.

Then - to do it PROPERLY, you're going to need an aftermarket management system. You can do it with the stock ecu, but you have to always run a plenum, with the MAF inline in the pipe work. With an aftermarket computer that can tune with throttle position, you can run open quads, and delete the MAF.

You'll probably also need to fashion a fuel rail, or modify the existing fuel rail....

cost? lots. Big time lots. Couple of thousand to have it done professionally i think. Depending on where abouts on the power curve you tune the runner lengths for, quads will offer almost unrivaled throttle response and mid range power. They can be tuned for peak power but due to the way they are designed, you can actually have fuel splash back out of the throttles at high RPM (this is to do with pressure waves created by the pistons traveling towards the top of the engine during the compression stroke).

To make the most out of them, agressive cams will be the order of the day.

You may also like to consider something from Redline Webber: they do custom quad throttle setups, so you can get the throttle bore exactly to what you want.

Quads are costly, difficult to tune, and LOUD.....but response wise you'd be hard pressed finding a better NA intake. If peak power is what you are after though, i'd consider a tuned length tunnel ram single throttle setup - these setups are well known for pushing NA motors to the limit - 110% VE (i.e. positive pressure at the valve) is achievable using a tunnel ram design.....its not achievable using quads, especially not open quads - quads rely soley on massive amounts of passive cylinder filling to do the work.

One guy on MSProtege did quads for his BJ....ended up saying it cost him more than a turbo setup to get it working exactly right and legal - but the sound it made was unbelievable. Have a search around for "Flat Black"s thread on "IRTBs" (the correct name for quads - individual runner throttlebodies).
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:35 PM   #34
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that was a monster of a post, but thanks, it helped me out a lot.
so realistically its not good bang for buck? turbo is better value for money?
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Old 03-06-2008, 10:00 PM   #35
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that was a monster of a post, but thanks, it helped me out a lot.
so realistically its not good bang for buck? turbo is better value for money?
really depends what you want.

If you want big power, you are not going to find better value than a turbo set up. The kits already exist, and the potential is there to run some large numbers.

if you only want a small gain, then turbo is a giant waste of money (as it just about anything beyond the "usual" modifications - our engines don't take very well to NA mods...it requires lots of time, effort, and expensive experimentation to unlock what little potential is there to be had from an NA perspective)
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