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Old 17-12-2004, 04:17 PM   #21
SFC01
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Left foot braking has advantages on track in that coast time is lost time. The time taken lifting off the throttle to depress the brake pedal could in theory be taken faster if left foot braking. Only talking minute amounts of time, but that is racing isn't it?

Also you should with skill be better able to balance a car on the traction limit left foot braking.

Some don't left foot brake because they aren't comfortable modulating a brake with the left foot, need to use a clutch with their left foot, or in the case of Rubens Barichello's driving style there were time and durability considerations which made it less advantageous.

Also in the days in F1 where exhausts exited in the underfloor tunnels there was in some cases a significant downforce advantage in keeping exhaust flow up while cornering - requiring left foot braking against the throttle!
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Old 17-12-2004, 11:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chipa
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahb11m
and my high recommendation is in the method of double declutching, and heel and toeing...
I couldn't agree more... I've been heel & toeing for so long I do it constantly. Even when I don't need too. It's only a tiny fraction more wear on your clutch, but it's heaps cheaper than fixing your gearbox. It also keeps your driving smoother and therefore faster....
naa its less wear as the wheels and th eengine are spinning at close to the same speed when you heel and toe, then again if you double declutch (esp on downshifts - like me) you will dramatically lengthen the life of a clutch
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Old 20-12-2004, 12:15 PM   #23
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Or you can just delete using the clutch and if you are bad you wear your synchros. But you won't wear your clutch any...

Had a drive in a dog box equipped car weekend before last. Holy Guacamole! Shifting speeds like you wouldn't believe!
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Old 21-12-2004, 12:02 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahb11m
naa its less wear as the wheels and th eengine are spinning at close to the same speed when you heel and toe, then again if you double declutch (esp on downshifts - like me) you will dramatically lengthen the life of a clutch
explain to me how those two methods are different?
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Old 21-12-2004, 08:14 PM   #25
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boub,

you'll have to show me what the heck you're talking about with this double declutching thingy. i'm confused as to what you do as to what i do when driving. i heel and toe rite? :?
argh :roll:
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Old 22-12-2004, 12:21 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Boy
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahb11m
naa its less wear as the wheels and th eengine are spinning at close to the same speed when you heel and toe, then again if you double declutch (esp on downshifts - like me) you will dramatically lengthen the life of a clutch
explain to me how those two methods are different?
because most people when heel and toeing just pull the gear up, rather than shifteing to neutral first
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Old 22-12-2004, 03:10 PM   #27
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In a synchro box what advantage is there in double declutching heel and toe vs heel and toe while shifting? Other than working out the left leg?

You will be reducing the work of the synchros for sure, but with no load in neutral how hard are they working to make the shift? You will also be doubling the work of the clutch in accelerating/decelerating the input shaft.
Granted if the rev matching is schmick then you aren't relying on friction to speed or slow the engine/car - which is infinately better than not trying to rev match.
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Old 22-12-2004, 10:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFC01
Granted if the rev matching is schmick then you aren't relying on friction to speed or slow the engine/car - which is infinately better than not trying to rev match.
you just answered your own question
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Old 22-12-2004, 11:07 PM   #29
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subscribe. ops:
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Old 23-12-2004, 08:31 AM   #30
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If you are rev matching you are rev matching. What is the advantage in double de-clutching? I don't think that I did answer my own question, at least "I" don't think that I answered my own question.
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Old 23-12-2004, 09:21 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFC01
double declutching heel and toe vs heel and toe
i'm gonna ask this again... for those that aren't novacastrian street racers... what the difference between these two? :roll:
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Old 23-12-2004, 09:35 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahb11m
because most people when heel and toeing just pull the gear up, rather than shifteing to neutral first
my bad.. i've just figuired what the fark you guys are on about...

OMG!!!!!! Thanks james for pointing that out... my god, some ppl have been playing far too much playstation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFC01
In a synchro box what advantage is there in double declutching heel and toe vs heel and toe while shifting? Other than working out the left leg?
would someone like to explain why you heal and toe.. because it certainly isn't to match revs between clutch plates... lets go back to basics children... the whole point of heal and toeing is to match revs between the output and input shaft of a gear box, so that the gears (ok.. the shaft links if we want to get technical :wink: ) pop together in the shortest possible time with the least effort...

if your not double clutching, then that means that your clutch is disconnected whilst you blib the throttle... translation: you aint doing sh!t... how are you going to match revs to a gearbox that isn't connected... there's no such things as this double declutching heal and toe, and heal and toe bs...

IF YOUR HEAL AND TOEING... YOUR DOUBLE CLUTCHING :evil:

now.... put the controller down, and visit this website:

http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/howsyncro.htm

pay special attention to the last line :wink:
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Old 23-12-2004, 10:21 PM   #33
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ok, i read the link. and that just confirmed what i already know about double clutching. right foot on accelerator and left foot working the clutch. where's the heel and toe in that?

i always thought that the heel and toe was having the right foot spread across (or if u have special pedals ie like in some v8s) both brake and accelerator at the same time.

so is the "optimum" idea to use both methods at once to slow down for corners?
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Old 24-12-2004, 12:26 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamby1986
i always thought that the heel and toe was having the right foot spread across (or if u have special pedals ie like in some v8s) both brake and accelerator at the same time.
correct!
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Old 24-12-2004, 08:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Boy
if your not double clutching, then that means that your clutch is disconnected whilst you blib the throttle... translation: you aint doing sh!t... how are you going to match revs to a gearbox that isn't connected... there's no such things as this double declutching heal and toe, and heal and toe bs...
You are accelerating the engine speed so there isn't a jerk through the drivetrain. If you are downshifting anywhere near the limit of adhesion (in a RWD especially) you don't want this sensation or you will snatch the rears and be facing the wrong direction pretty fast.

The fastest downshifts that you are going to get in your car is a properly matched *clutchless* shift. Significantly faster than you can pop the clutch in and out once, and definately twice... :twisted:

Heel and toe only really relates to the simultaneous use of the brake and the accelerator pedals.
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Old 24-12-2004, 11:33 AM   #36
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lamby1986.. yes... you simultaneously use the ball of your foot on the brake, and the heel on the accelerator.... whilst using your left foot to clutch...

SFC01.... mate... your still missing the point... YOU DON'T USE YOUR GEARS TO SLOW DOWN IN RACE CONDITIONS... SO YOU SHOULDN'T BE ANYWHERE NEAR THE LIMIT OF ADHETION THORUGH THE DRIVETRAIN...

it doesn't matter how quick or slow your downchange is because gears are used to accelerate, heal and toeing is BY FAR the quickest (and most balanced) way to drive any car that doesn't have a dogbox....

honestly.. if you think that you can single clutch a downshift in a helical box when racing quicker than you can pop a doubled clutched heal and toe.. then you seriously have a lot to learn about driving :roll:
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Old 24-12-2004, 05:41 PM   #37
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less wear, and also better performance in downshifts
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Old 24-12-2004, 05:44 PM   #38
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ladies ladies ladies, i have an idea. go to a track and race one another using ur own driving styles and see who wins. well in a perfect world where each car was exactly the same it would work anyway. thank god this isnt a perfect word. unless all the cars where BA 323f's
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Old 25-12-2004, 04:47 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Boy
IF YOUR HEAL AND TOEING... YOUR DOUBLE CLUTCHING
and just to confuse things ... you can double clutch without heal and toeing :P
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Old 26-12-2004, 10:36 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Boy
SFC01.... mate... your still missing the point... YOU DON'T USE YOUR GEARS TO SLOW DOWN IN RACE CONDITIONS... SO YOU SHOULDN'T BE ANYWHERE NEAR THE LIMIT OF ADHETION THORUGH THE DRIVETRAIN...

honestly.. if you think that you can single clutch a downshift in a helical box when racing quicker than you can pop a doubled clutched heal and toe.. then you seriously have a lot to learn about driving :roll:
Mate,

If you aren't near the limit of adhesion when you are decelerating in race conditions you shouldn't be out there full stop.

If you snatch a gear or are not smooth whilst downshifting and braking you will lose time at least, and maybe control of the car. The very last thing that you want to do in this situation is fire a destabilizing shock through the drivetrain - which is why ANY rev matching technique is better than none. I never mentioned anything about using the gears to slow down the car did I? :roll:

Helical vs straightcut gearboxes doesn't make a lick of difference to anything other than noise levels and gear strength. Nothing at all to do with shifting gears.

On a personal note I don't use the clutch on downshifts when I am driving fast. I left foot brake as well. I can't for the life of me double shuffle, but I'm ok with that.

I also think that every person on this forum has a lot to learn about driving (including me) which is why most of us contribute to a forum. Certainly not to obtain the sensation that one is being brow beaten.
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