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Old 01-07-2006, 02:53 PM   #1
LordWorm
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Brand Advice

Well, its bonus and tax return time, and I decided it'd be a good time to look at the sound system in the protege.

I've had my heart set on a full fusion system for a while now, as a good mate of mine has a pretty awesome fusion system. Went into northfield to look at prices.

I was told by the manager, that he doesnt sell fusion anymore, he has a full pile of fusion gear on the floor that he wants to get rid of at pretty much cost price, and will never deal with the company again... he then pushed me towards the alpine sound board, showed me a few disected alpine and fusion subs, and was speaking some gobbledygook that made me think twice about fusion.

Now, I was always of the opinion that Alpine, especially the affordable alpine, was pretty ordinary - but the stuff he showed me (Type S and type R 12 in subs) was pretty wicked.

So heres the question.

Do i pick up fusion gear, which until 10 minutes ago I was sure was some of hte best sounding gear money could buy, at cost, run the risk of dealing with a shoddy warrenty process (the northfield guy's number one gripe), poor workmanship - and back my friends recommendation and my own experience with his otherwise awesome setup.... or do I go down the road of the thing everyone seems to do and buy type S 12 in subs with V-Power amps?

Normally I wouldn't believe anything that a salesman pushing a certain brand at me would say, but the fact that he was willing to ring up other specialist stereo places so they could tell me the same thing, the fact that he's willing to clear out his fusion stuff at pretty well near on cost, and the fact that fusion have apparently changed management in australia 4 times in the passed year or so have got me thinking....

Rang my friend with the fusion system and he said the only thing that could have him think this way, is if fusion have recently dropped their bundle with quality to serve a larger market share...

Anyone got anything to say on the matter? Anyone got any experience good or bad from northfield? if you dont wanna post here about it for whatever reason gimme a pm...
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Old 01-07-2006, 02:58 PM   #2
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:25 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twilightprotege
ricer
am not :P

just after something that sounds half decent...

The way this guy was talking, brands that are spose to be awesome, are all made on chinese assembly lines...one day they press the red button for sony, the next the green button for fusion, then the whatever button for JL...

He only stocks boston audio, eclipse, focal and alpine, with a pile of fusion gear he doesnt want anything to do with sitting on the floor.
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:45 PM   #4
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i say go get the fusion... if a component breaks then replace it with a higher end, but where your going your looking at a good setup with fusion anyway....

i say mix and match unless your sponsered by the company!!!
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by platypus
i say go get the fusion... if a component breaks then replace it with a higher end, but where your going your looking at a good setup with fusion anyway....

i say mix and match unless your sponsered by the company!!!
I like keeping stuff the same brand. Looks better, designed the work together.. and hey, if you like a company support it.

System would be 2x 12in subs. 6x9 2 way fronts with the tweeter disabled and a satalite tweeter (if i go fusion), or the 5x7 alpine Type S if i go that way, then 3way 6x9s in the back. Individually amped subs if i go fusion, single amped subs if i go alpine (not sure yet, thats what the dude at the place said...so meh). Then 2 channel for the front, 2 channel for the back.. Stock head unit, and AuxMod advanced to get mp3 playback if the thing ever gets finished by the company in the states thats developing it.

I pressed the guy for a dollar amount on the gear, and he wouldnt give it to me (the fusion gear that is), he said he'd rather just deal with me over the phone if i went that way cos he doesnt wanna know the person he's selling them to..... I mean for the guy to carry on like that, knock a perfectly good sale back, there MUST be something in what he's saying.

but - I have heard my mates system crank....blow away systems that cost two and three times the amount, survive a year of constant thrashing and still sound as good as the day it went in....leads me to believe fusion must have dropped the bundle quality wise.

I dunno
Unless i just bite the bullet and buy Focal or Eclipse gear and never have to worry about sound quality OR build quality ever.


Oh, other advantage of the alpine is that it has line level inputs, so no need for a Line level to RCA converter on the stock head deck.... spose that saves a bit of money and stuffing around.
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Old 02-07-2006, 09:46 PM   #6
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i say alpine all the way...ill be gettin rid of all my gear later on for an all alpine setup...i reckon alpine has top quality gear...also wormy...i suggest goin to gold coast car sound...ive found there prices on alpine stuff is very good, and if you find it cheaper somewhere else theyll see what they can do to match it...top quality gear alpine is...looks goood sounds goood, goes good and best of all, its not the most expensive...
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Old 02-07-2006, 10:20 PM   #7
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Old 03-07-2006, 07:20 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bourbon
i say alpine all the way...ill be gettin rid of all my gear later on for an all alpine setup...i reckon alpine has top quality gear...also wormy...i suggest goin to gold coast car sound...ive found there prices on alpine stuff is very good, and if you find it cheaper somewhere else theyll see what they can do to match it...top quality gear alpine is...looks goood sounds goood, goes good and best of all, its not the most expensive...
Yeah, i went into northfield thinking alpine was crud, and after hearing something played through the Type R 12in sub, with matched splits etc, all be it in a specially built alpine enclosure (i'll be going full custom enclosure) - the sound was awesome, filled the entire showroom up...left me wondering how it'd sound in my car.

Powerwise, the Type S series stuff is rated slightly higher than the fusion gear i was looking at (Type S is second from the bottom), and the fusion system i was looking at was identical to my mates...the alpine subs look heftier, and alot more solid. Its probably the way I will end up going, unless i win the lotto can can afford a focal system
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Old 03-07-2006, 08:20 AM   #9
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Alpine are good
Fusion are crap
Eclipse are awesome
Clarion/Orion are great budget stuff
JL Audio also awesome cheap stuff
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Old 03-07-2006, 09:16 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deejayryry
Alpine are good
Fusion are crap
Eclipse are awesome
Clarion/Orion are great budget stuff
JL Audio also awesome cheap stuff
Thats how its all looking at the moment

you forgot Focal - uberawesomemortgageyourhouseandsellyourleftnuttoow n stuff...if i win the lotto i'll get some of that.

I'm thinking the alpine fits well in the bang for buck scale....build quality and after sale support seems great too.... ok so i'll be dubbed a ricer for owning it, ok i'll own the same setup that most other people seem to have.. dont care. if it sounds good, and doesnt cost me the earth, then i'm happy.
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Old 03-07-2006, 09:20 AM   #11
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A guy at work puts it simply "There's a reason Ferrari use Alpine in their cars...". My ears tend to like the top end Clarion stuff, but I'm more into PC sound, so I got no idea myself...
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Old 03-07-2006, 09:49 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by chicaboo
A guy at work puts it simply "There's a reason Ferrari use Alpine in their cars...". My ears tend to like the top end Clarion stuff, but I'm more into PC sound, so I got no idea myself...
Yeh well, noone can give me a reason for them being "crap" other than the fact that its the stuff "ricers" are "paid" to install in their cars...

I mean until i get some DEFINATIVE reasons (ie. poor build quality, poor sound reproduction etc), i wont be wiping it off the list.

Fusion have been all but wiped, unless i can get it at a cheap enough price...seeing inside the thing it looked like the whole thing was made out of paper..... that and the fact that its been 5 months since i sent an email to fusion australia regarding some extra info.....and the fact that autobarn seem to be the only people willing to deal with them anymore has got me thinking twice.

Still open to other suggestions... JL have been suggested to me but I have no experience with their products and i'm a bit hard pressed to find anyone thats got some setup on a sound board.

I'm open to mixing and matching, but wary, as I'm a firm believer that things are designed to work together in concert.....

End of the day i'm looking at spending about $300 a pop on the subs....and whatever is required to amp them effectivly. SQ is the number one concern... I'm not for decimating eardrums or killing chooks with subsonic frequencies.
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordWorm
SQ is the number one concern... I'm not for decimating eardrums or killing chooks with subsonic frequencies.
Then why go for 2 12" subs? 1 $600 decent 12" will do a better job than 2 half-decent $300 12" subs.

The only reason not to mix & match is because you actually have a good reason to stick with a brand. Yes, certain lines from a brand (such as Alpine Type S/R/X) are basically matched for frequency, but that wont mean much once they are mounted in your car. To get it right you'll still need tune the system to suit the interior of your car as some freq's will but louder than others because of mounting position and direction. A good example is the front doors of the BJ, speakers don't even point upwards at all and you miss out of a reasonable amount of midrange from your side of the car. I'm running Alpine in the front and OLD pioneer in the rear doors, and they match up brilliantly.

A good idea may be to work out how much you want to spend in total and ask on caraudioaustralia.com.au.
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:11 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by chipa
Then why go for 2 12" subs? 1 $600 decent 12" will do a better job than 2 half-decent $300 12" subs.

The only reason not to mix & match is because you actually have a good reason to stick with a brand. Yes, certain lines from a brand (such as Alpine Type S/R/X) are basically matched for frequency, but that wont mean much once they are mounted in your car. To get it right you'll still need tune the system to suit the interior of your car as some freq's will but louder than others because of mounting position and direction. A good example is the front doors of the BJ, speakers don't even point upwards at all and you miss out of a reasonable amount of midrange from your side of the car. I'm running Alpine in the front and OLD pioneer in the rear doors, and they match up brilliantly.

A good idea may be to work out how much you want to spend in total and ask on caraudioaustralia.com.au.
going for 2 because they do half the work. I've listened to some pretty high end 12s in some pretty top quality cars. two always sounds better than one. Far more crisp hits with rapid bass etc. Crispness and clarity is the reason i'm going for a sealed box.

I plan to get onto caraudioaustralia and go "i have this much to spend, what should i buy and why"....and see what happens.

Another reason for going for a matched system is wheeling and dealing... i can probably get a bit more sway with the people i'm buying it off to get the price down if i grab a whole lot of the same stuff.
Also means i have one warrenty spot if something busts up.
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:33 PM   #15
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chipa, i keep telling him 1 decent sub is better than 2 average subs but he wont listen
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:39 PM   #16
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i'm not talking about buying 2 average subs, i'm talking about buying 2 decent subs, or 2 matched subs. 2 subs of whatever i would buy one of at anyrate.

and not to be an ass, but everything you guys have said FLYS IN THE FACE of everything i have read, heard about, and listened to with my own ears. 2 is always better than 1, 3 is always better than 2, 4 is always better than 3 etc... FOR SOUND QUALITY reproduction, not necissarilly SPL (we all know more 15in stupidity subs is great for SPL).

Pick up any magazine showing off a top quality SQ rig, and its got 2 subs, at least, in a sealed box, individually amped. Reason, more overhead, more control.

Ok I may be wrong, but why then is everywhere else I look telling me that more is the way to go?
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordWorm
going for 2 because they do half the work. I've listened to some pretty high end 12s in some pretty top quality cars. two always sounds better than one. Far more crisp hits with rapid bass etc. Crispness and clarity is the reason i'm going for a sealed box.
Have you ever heard of the placebo effect? Plus the only way for that to work is if you compare 2 identical cars with identical systems but one is done with 1 sub and the other has 2 subs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordWorm
Another reason for going for a matched system is wheeling and dealing... i can probably get a bit more sway with the people i'm buying it off to get the price down if i grab a whole lot of the same stuff.
Also means i have one warrenty spot if something busts up.
Cannot argue with that. Personally I'm too picky so I end up getting it individually just so I get the best thing to suit my job at hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twilightprotege
chipa, i keep telling him 1 decent sub is better than 2 average subs but he wont listen
Experience tells.. We all start learning sometime.....

LordWorm - Another good sugestion may be to contact a custom install and have a chat to them about what you want/need. Remember that no matter how good they may seem every shop makes more money by selling as much stock as possible, A custom installer makes their money by doing a good job. The difference in advice and work quality will show every time.
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:52 PM   #18
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hey it may be the placebo effect... but then there must be alot of people, audiophiles, who get their rocks off by spending big money on sound who are effected.....thats all i'm saying.

my advice is comign from personal research, friends rides, and general pottering around. Only advice from a dealer i've had is to look at something other than fusion because apparentlyt he quality is ****e.

give me the reasons and the evidence to debunk quite a bit of apparent missinformation it seems, and i'll reconsider.... but the 1x $1000 sub is better than 2x $500 sub just aint cutting it for me guys.... WHAT $1000 sub is better than WHAT 2 $500 subs, and why?
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordWorm
i'm not talking about buying 2 average subs, i'm talking about buying 2 decent subs, or 2 matched subs. 2 subs of whatever i would buy one of at anyrate.

and not to be an ass, but everything you guys have said FLYS IN THE FACE of everything i have read, heard about, and listened to with my own ears. 2 is always better than 1, 3 is always better than 2, 4 is always better than 3 etc... FOR SOUND QUALITY reproduction, not necissarilly SPL (we all know more 15in stupidity subs is great for SPL).

Pick up any magazine showing off a top quality SQ rig, and its got 2 subs, at least, in a sealed box, individually amped. Reason, more overhead, more control.

Ok I may be wrong, but why then is everywhere else I look telling me that more is the way to go?
Actually for SQL a second sub only raises you around 3db... Bugger all for the investment. Go to a SQ comp or have a talk to some top SQ competitor's.

More overhead.... Well what you are talking about is headroom, to put it simply say you budget is $600 for sub(s). a $600 sub will have more headroom than and 2 $300 subs. Headroom is often expressed in precentages, say the $600 sub is rated for 600WRMS and the $300 is rated for 300WRMS. With 10% headroom you get 60WRMS for the $600 sub and only 30WRMS per $300 sub. Although I seriously doubt you'll find a car speaker with headroom specs included, I usually only see it with higher end PA speakers.

More control....This is actually more governed by the sub design and to a lesser extent the amp. The sub's TS specs can help with this. What is comes down to is that subs with better control are often (not always) better for ported design's, and subs with less control are used with sealed boxes as the enclosure helps to control the movement of the cone as the air inside the box becomes compressed.
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:58 PM   #20
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Actually for SQL a second sub only raises you around 3db... Bugger all for the investment. Go to a SQ comp or have a talk to some top SQ competitor's.

More overhead.... Well what you are talking about is headroom, to put it simply say you budget is $600 for sub(s). a $600 sub will have more headroom than and 2 $300 subs. Headroom is often expressed in precentages, say the $600 sub is rated for 600WRMS and the $300 is rated for 300WRMS. With 10% headroom you get 60WRMS for the $600 sub and only 30WRMS per $300 sub. Although I seriously doubt you'll find a car speaker with headroom specs included, I usually only see it with higher end PA speakers.

More control....This is actually more governed by the sub design and to a lesser extent the amp. The sub's TS specs can help with this. What is comes down to is that subs with better control are often (not always) better for ported design's, and subs with less control are used with sealed boxes as the enclosure helps to control the movement of the cone as the air inside the box becomes compressed.
but to achieve the same volume with 2 subs, you run them with alot less power. so they are further away from the point where they crap out.
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