Go Back   AstinaGT Forums > Performance & Technical > Performance & General Maintenance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 18-08-2006, 07:39 PM   #1
adelaidesp20
Junior Member
 
adelaidesp20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: adelaide
Posts: 77
Unhappy What the ......(Dyno run result for SP20)

Well....in preparation for possibly getting twiggy Cams and ECU for my car i thought i'd finally get a dynorun for a before figure at the wheels.

My sig says, K&N panel filter, 4-1 Headers, Free flow exhaust, CAI, and also 2 1/4 inch exhaust cat back.

Now youd be thinking that at least a power increase with all the above of at least 10-15% giving me about 115kw at the flywheel from the stock 98kw SP20's have.

I was shocked when Morpowa came back with at wheel figures of 80.3kw after three runs on the Shootout4 mode on the dyno.

Before you post a repsonse with did you do this and did you do that etc... the car is regularly serviced, and runs on Premium. The car feels great on the road and feels quick but surely the Dyno result does not lie. In fact Morpowa reckon that it is easy to change the figures to inflate the result and possibly the car was well below the 98kw at stock ??? who knows the answer ???

I reckon though i'm not spending a cent more on the car to increase performance.

Am a little dissappointed and have been moping around all day. When the missus asked what was wrong when she came home, I told her what had happened and explained to her it was like her thinking she had size 14 breasts and then having a fitting and to be told they were in fact size 8's!!!
I was so looking forward to having cams/ecu but to only improve on the stock figures seems pointless.

Anyways.... am happy to scan the dyno run and email to someone to post on to this thread as I cant seem to get it working.
__________________
E-Manage
4-1 Pacemaker Headers with first cat removed.
Hi FLow "Exhaust Technology" Sports Muffler
17" Chrome AME rims with 215/40R17 87Y Hankook Sport Ventus K104
Chromed Fuel Filler Cap
K&N panel filter with CAI
Carbon fibre rear altezzas tail lights
98,000km and counting as at 1/2/07 (6yr anniversary)
93.2kW ATW Dyno tested.

Last edited by adelaidesp20; 21-08-2006 at 01:18 PM. Reason: better description of thread
adelaidesp20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 18-08-2006, 07:54 PM   #2
Cosmo Dude
コスモ
 
Cosmo Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Location: Vic
Car: Mazda '95 Astina I4, '86 B2K and '10 3 MZR-CD
Posts: 7,888
What were you expecting?
You loose power through the drive train. As the power figure is calculated on the fly the 17" wheels would have soaked up some of the power.
Best dyno results are before and after on the same machine so you can compare % and not kw or HP.
__________________
My 'stina Hatch
Cosmo Dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2006, 07:59 PM   #3
adelaidesp20
Junior Member
 
adelaidesp20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: adelaide
Posts: 77
Thanks.
I realise that there is drivetain power loss... of about 20%.
Hence...80.3kw at the wheels equates to approx 100kw at the fly compared to stock 98kw. Gain of only 2kw. 17 Inch wheels I would have though would not have made a difference I would have thought. Only thought that this would be significant on a 0-100kmh run etc...

I also went hunting through an old Hot4s magazine of Feb 2002 where they dyno ran a Laser SR2 on a project car they had and based dyno run prior to any mods was 95.7HP at the wheels which is approx equal to 78kw again only 2kw different to my dyno run of today.

Something is not right!
__________________
E-Manage
4-1 Pacemaker Headers with first cat removed.
Hi FLow "Exhaust Technology" Sports Muffler
17" Chrome AME rims with 215/40R17 87Y Hankook Sport Ventus K104
Chromed Fuel Filler Cap
K&N panel filter with CAI
Carbon fibre rear altezzas tail lights
98,000km and counting as at 1/2/07 (6yr anniversary)
93.2kW ATW Dyno tested.
adelaidesp20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2006, 08:15 PM   #4
Rupewrecht
Administrator
 
Rupewrecht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: melb.vic.au
Car: AZ-1, Astina Hardtop Turbo, BJ Protege, Beetle
Posts: 16,525
A few things:

When manufacturers get a flywheel reading, they usually do it without all the engine accessories attached, so they get a higher reading that you'd get with the car installed.

Every dyno is different. Some read high, some read low. And for that matter what should be identical cars are different and reacts to mods slightly diferently to the next one off the production line.

And it's true that the 17's will affect your readout, but probably not that much when you've got 16's as standard.

I think you're putting too much faith in a dyno reading. If your car feels faster than when it was stock, then that's the important thing.
__________________

jdmparts.rupewrecht.com
Sourcing your not-quite-overnight parts from Japan

WRECHT--|--SLOWTEGE--|--BEETLE--|--SUBSTITUTE--|--AZ-1


Rupewrecht is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2006, 08:40 PM   #5
adelaidesp20
Junior Member
 
adelaidesp20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: adelaide
Posts: 77
Thanks Rupewrecht.
Thought of that too.
Had a look at a mates Dyno who went to the same place and he has Mazda 3 2.0 Maxx and got a base run with no mods and had 84kw at the wheel. With the loss in drivetrain etc.. etc... it makes approx 105kw at the fly...suspiciously the same as the Mazdas power guide for the Mazda 3 2.0 litre engine.
Morpowa is also recognised as a Legitimate delaer and has prepared some of the fastest 4 cyl cars in Oz including the Fawson Lancer GSR etc...
The guy know what he was doing and was also surprised, except to say that he did notice a rich burn above 5000rpm and that he could lean this from 10 AFR to around 13-14 AFR which would provide some gains (using Unichip-in my budget range) ... and possibly advancing timing. He also knew the car was modded.

: (
__________________
E-Manage
4-1 Pacemaker Headers with first cat removed.
Hi FLow "Exhaust Technology" Sports Muffler
17" Chrome AME rims with 215/40R17 87Y Hankook Sport Ventus K104
Chromed Fuel Filler Cap
K&N panel filter with CAI
Carbon fibre rear altezzas tail lights
98,000km and counting as at 1/2/07 (6yr anniversary)
93.2kW ATW Dyno tested.
adelaidesp20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2006, 05:56 AM   #6
boostedbatman
Manpink Crusader
 
boostedbatman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Stafford, Brisbane
Car: 1990 GD mx6 F2T, and soon I might drive the batmoobile once again
Posts: 2,280
Send a message via MSN to boostedbatman
Dont forget that as a car ages the pperformnce will drop, you have things like carbon buildup, loss of compression, injectors not working to their full potential
Ask Mazda to dyno a 5 yr old car and they wont come up with the same figures either
I bet if you stripped the motor changed pistons and rings, valves and valve seals, cleaned out the heads, cleaned out the IM and TB, replaced the bearings throughout, replaced your coils and plugs/leads you would have a much higher figure
What did you expect
You can service your car once a week for 5 years from the showroom and it wont manage the power figures of a new engine

Just for the record it takes more than kilowatts to make a car fast
Why can a 600hp v8 supercar get beaten down the 1/4 mile against a 250hp atw fwd streetcar
Would the streetcar even stand a glimmer of hope out on a track against a supercar??
Remember that you bought a car as stock and it feels lots faster today than it did when new, thats the important thing
You will NEVER drive a dyno to work or on a cruise
boostedbatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2006, 05:59 AM   #7
project.r.racing
Senior Member
 
project.r.racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: n/a
Car: n/a
Posts: 10,929
drivetrains also dont loose power as a % - it's more like a certain kW amount.

eg - a 100kw car, if it loses 20% power then it'll be 80kW atw.
if a 200kW car loses the 20% then it'll be 160kW atw.

it don't work like that. it's more like it loses about 25-30kW power no matter what power you have. less if you adjust clutches/flywheels/gearing etc. and the 80.3kW is 10-15% more power at the wheels also as you thought you'd get. remember that a stock SP20 has 68-73kW at the wheels. so you've had a gain of 7-12kW. thats pretty good.
project.r.racing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2006, 03:58 PM   #8
platypus
living in the past man
 
platypus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Newcastle, NSW
Car: Subaru Outback 2.0 turbo
Posts: 4,707
Send a message via MSN to platypus
sounds all pretty spot on to me...
__________________
1997 BG5 Subaru Outback - Now with STI boost...
platypus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2006, 05:11 PM   #9
Fro-Daddy
Senior Member
 
Fro-Daddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 499
Send a message via MSN to Fro-Daddy
my stock sp20 got 79.5kw...go figure :s

although i do think the dyno was reading high that day...
Fro-Daddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2006, 11:25 PM   #10
rodhog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Lakemba
Car: mx-6 626 Gs300 Maz2 was 95 KF BA-HT
Posts: 2,024
Don't take this the wrong way but.

First off it's mild comped stock rock 2L engine. All them mods don't unlock lads of power. It's an engine that has been developed from 1991.
If you were hoping for something great that is great. I know you might not understand what I mean but.
it's 2.0L N/A engine sure it has 16 valves etc but it's long stroke still and it's only mildy running on the high side of 9.6:1 ( which is known as the 91ROn fuel cut off).

I don't want to turn you off. but if you want huge HP You have to start with CUBIC INCHES - simple way. If you want it in a small package FI is your friend.

everything else will help but it will not get you the massive numbers unless you sink $$$$$$.
even with a good starting package $$$$ won't always help.
EG - a S13 put $10K into a motor driveline will get you a nice hi 12 pass.
buy a HQ put 10K into and you can with right decisions at the right time and get a Low 12 pass.
It's all about money and cubic inches and what you want.

I've seen many a person waste time with 4cylinder when they want 11second street machine.
I know everyone has things over looks -ideas - don't want to be of there crowd etc. Or even the most stupid cost of fuel - I say stupid because to make power you need to BURN MORE FUEL.

Don't be disapointed with it. I only got 98hp from my auto back Astina V6 and I was very happy.
rodhog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2006, 01:09 PM   #11
adelaidesp20
Junior Member
 
adelaidesp20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: adelaide
Posts: 77
Thanks Deejayray

I would feel a little happier if i could see the base 68-73kw dyno sheet as confirmation that I have had an increase on base run of 7-12kw as you say.


Hotrod... i get your point though, there is a fineline between cubic inches and my 2.0 litre na engine...to get 12 second passes.... but that is not what I'm after.
Me personally looking at a car that can run in the low 15's which is manageable on fuel and still be able to give power to pass a few of the other street machines on the road without being embarrassed at the lights. (legally of course).

I recall seeing Twiggys dyno runs some time ago before each mod. Does anyone know if these are online anywhere to check out?
__________________
E-Manage
4-1 Pacemaker Headers with first cat removed.
Hi FLow "Exhaust Technology" Sports Muffler
17" Chrome AME rims with 215/40R17 87Y Hankook Sport Ventus K104
Chromed Fuel Filler Cap
K&N panel filter with CAI
Carbon fibre rear altezzas tail lights
98,000km and counting as at 1/2/07 (6yr anniversary)
93.2kW ATW Dyno tested.
adelaidesp20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2006, 07:45 PM   #12
twilightprotege
Driving a faster car now!
 
twilightprotege's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Work, always at bloody work...
Car: Lotus ....... .
Posts: 5,217
you'd need to check my signature on www.msprotege.com for my dyno runs and the respective mods etc.

and yes, the 17's wont help. that's for sure - and as everyone says, different dynos yield different results, but then again the dynodynamics shootout modes are supposed to fix all of that - and shoot_4 is what most people use all the time.

for the sp20, a rough calculation is whp = flywheel kw. so 80.3kw = 107.78whp. so a rough calc would give you close enough to 108kw at the fly - a 10kw flywheel increase over stock. not that bad considering you have 17" wheels which i'm sure arent the lightest going around. do you still have your stocko rims around? maybe it might be worth while to put them on and give the car another pass on the dyno? would be interesting too!
twilightprotege is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2006, 09:18 PM   #13
Astro Boy
GSL RallySport
 
Astro Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brendale QLD!!!
Car: Cross 6
Posts: 1,835
Quote:
Originally Posted by deejayryry
drivetrains also dont loose power as a % - it's more like a certain kW amount.

eg - a 100kw car, if it loses 20% power then it'll be 80kW atw.
if a 200kW car loses the 20% then it'll be 160kW atw.

it don't work like that. it's more like it loses about 25-30kW power no matter what power you have. less if you adjust clutches/flywheels/gearing etc. and the 80.3kW is 10-15% more power at the wheels also as you thought you'd get. remember that a stock SP20 has 68-73kW at the wheels. so you've had a gain of 7-12kW. thats pretty good.
Correct... Drivetrain loss probably isn't the best way to describe what's happening here... Yes, to a certain degree, power is lost in the drivetrain, that's a given, and to some degree, will always be roughly a certain %... BUT, the second part of why cars lose power to the wheels are the ancilleries driven off the engine, which regardless of output will always be a constant, like alternator, power steering, and aircon, all things which aren't attached when a manufacturer tests an engine...

Like for example, the Lada may only make 50kW () but i bet at least 45kW of those make it to the ground, to get the same ATW power figurie from a modern car with those ancilleries, you'd need closer to 65-70 engine kw...
__________________
- GSL RallySport - Ph: 1300 884 836 -
Sick of paying too much for high performance brake pads? Want high performance and cold bite with low rotor wear?
- QFM Performance Brake Pads -
Also specialising in
- DMS High Performance Shock Absorbers - Monit Rally Computers -
Astro Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2006, 08:35 AM   #14
Sleepy Gonzalez
AstinaGT Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Australia
Car: 2002 Mazda 323 Astina 2.5 V6 manual
Posts: 324
My BJ 1.8 dynoed 88kw with full exhaust done, then 95kw with unichip. Very suspiciously high! (Dynamic Test Systems Dyno). More important would be the % increase after mods?
Sleepy Gonzalez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2006, 01:17 PM   #15
adelaidesp20
Junior Member
 
adelaidesp20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: adelaide
Posts: 77
Thanks Twiggy

Your reasoning has reassured me.
Though, I still cant see why 17's v stock 16's would make a huge amount of difference as rolling diameter is only slightly different. You say that 17's are heavier so how does that calculate into the equation with dyno runs etc...?

Thanks to all who have replied, have rung around Adelaide and am now leaning towards Haltech interceptor rather than Unichip for obvious reasons and for the slight increase in costs hope to eliminate the rich burn over 4000rpm and hope to achieve a 90kw atw reading after tuning etc... as well as improved economy runs.
__________________
E-Manage
4-1 Pacemaker Headers with first cat removed.
Hi FLow "Exhaust Technology" Sports Muffler
17" Chrome AME rims with 215/40R17 87Y Hankook Sport Ventus K104
Chromed Fuel Filler Cap
K&N panel filter with CAI
Carbon fibre rear altezzas tail lights
98,000km and counting as at 1/2/07 (6yr anniversary)
93.2kW ATW Dyno tested.
adelaidesp20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2006, 01:22 PM   #16
LordWorm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: .
Car: .
Posts: 1,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by adelaidesp20
Thanks Twiggy

Your reasoning has reassured me.
Though, I still cant see why 17's v stock 16's would make a huge amount of difference as rolling diameter is only slightly different. You say that 17's are heavier so how does that calculate into the equation with dyno runs etc...?

Thanks to all who have replied, have rung around Adelaide and am now leaning towards Haltech interceptor rather than Unichip for obvious reasons and for the slight increase in costs hope to eliminate the rich burn over 4000rpm and hope to achieve a 90kw atw reading after tuning etc... as well as improved economy runs.
The 17s would definantly make a measurable difference.

For the cost of the haltech interceptor, have you considered going full stand alone?
__________________

Need parts? Contact sales@b3motorsports.com
LordWorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2006, 01:38 PM   #17
Cincinnatus
Nate Dog
 
Cincinnatus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Car: Dah!
Posts: 539
Power at fly is just that.

When you dyno, at wheels means the power is filtered through a 15kg fly wheel, 15 kg of turning cogs inside the gearbox, and 20 kgs 2 front wheels. Your after market jobys probably made that 30kg wheels. (2 fronts together). You are adding 10kg to 50kg. That's a 20% increase in wheight that the dyno is reading through. Find a pair of light wheight 14 inch rims and you'll get a significantly better dyno reading. Even your stock 16's will do markedly better.
Cincinnatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2006, 02:09 PM   #18
skippy
Resident Dissident
 
skippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ole Sydney Town
Car: Alfa 156 TS
Posts: 1,197
In regards to wheel weights,
Distance from centre makes a large difference to power needed to spin the wheel,


If all the weight is in the centre it will spin easily, all the weigh at the outer edge (ie at rubber) it will be harder to spin, same theory as levers,

So you can actually change to lightweight wheels and lose power it they are weighted in the wrong spot, (so what I am saying is where the weight is on the actual wheel makes a difference almost as much as the weight of the wheel)

So larger diameter wheels will push the weight out further thus harder to spin so a 17” wheel weighing 10 kg will lose power compared to a 14” weighing 10kg.
skippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2006, 08:45 AM   #19
adelaidesp20
Junior Member
 
adelaidesp20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: adelaide
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordWorm
The 17s would definantly make a measurable difference.

For the cost of the haltech interceptor, have you considered going full stand alone?
Locally have quotes of $1300 for unichip and the dealer I'm waiting on at the moment for Haltech says approx $1300-1400. Am only waiting to hear from him whether the Sp20 is supported with the interceptor as apparently this unit is fairly new.

Standalone, got quoted $2500 for Motech but my budget wont stretch passed $1400.

Am now looking for stock 16's as i sold mine over a year ago when i got the chrom wheels as am now interested in the next dyno run to get a more realistic figure before the ECU upgrade.
Will post results as they come to hand.
__________________
E-Manage
4-1 Pacemaker Headers with first cat removed.
Hi FLow "Exhaust Technology" Sports Muffler
17" Chrome AME rims with 215/40R17 87Y Hankook Sport Ventus K104
Chromed Fuel Filler Cap
K&N panel filter with CAI
Carbon fibre rear altezzas tail lights
98,000km and counting as at 1/2/07 (6yr anniversary)
93.2kW ATW Dyno tested.
adelaidesp20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2006, 09:38 AM   #20
LordWorm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: .
Car: .
Posts: 1,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by adelaidesp20
Locally have quotes of $1300 for unichip and the dealer I'm waiting on at the moment for Haltech says approx $1300-1400. Am only waiting to hear from him whether the Sp20 is supported with the interceptor as apparently this unit is fairly new.

Standalone, got quoted $2500 for Motech but my budget wont stretch passed $1400.

Am now looking for stock 16's as i sold mine over a year ago when i got the chrom wheels as am now interested in the next dyno run to get a more realistic figure before the ECU upgrade.
Will post results as they come to hand.
Microtech LT10S standalone EMS, $1065, been done on the SP20/protege5 dozens of times, works a treat....

if the haltech/unichip is going to set you back that much, you could almost go microtech LT10S, with X4 direct ignition box, and bosch coils for the same price.....
__________________

Need parts? Contact sales@b3motorsports.com
LordWorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time now is 11:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
2001- 2010 AstinaGT