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Old 04-09-2010, 09:18 AM   #1
Sleepy Gonzalez
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KL-ZE into BJ?

Sorry for the long post, but it's time to sort this out before I waste too much time on it.

My 2002 BJ Astina 1.8 has done 242,000km now and I'm starting to budget for an engine and gearbox rebuild or replacement. Engine and gearbox still fine, but how long can it last?

Every time I get fed up with the car, it's to do with the engine and/or computer. Sounds like an industrial sewing machine, it's slow, vibratesand it's hard to get much more power and if you do, the engine and gearbox have a reputation for being weak.

Yet I can never seem to bring myself to selling it. It's cheap to run, practical, and I like the handling. eg Chasing a 500hp VY SS ute up and down a mountain road the other day. The ute took off like a missile on the straights and left me like I was standing still, but on the corners the BJ would catch up and be all over it like a rash. It's just so nice to drive on the twisties. Great fun. By the time V8's fuel gauge read 100km to empty, I had used less than 1/3 of a tank. And my tyres would be lasting better too. That's the sort of thing that keeps happening and makes me think "Yeah, I'll keep it."

So, options?

1. Run it till it fails, then get used from a wrecker? Cheapest, quickest.

2. Swap for rebuilt? 3k for no upgrade in performance!

3. FS-ZE swap.

4. KL-ZE swap? More expensive and complicated, but, it's getting popular in North America, with good info now available and should actually be easier here thanks to RHD and OBD I. I love the sound and it is supposed to be a very smooth running engine. More power! 7,200? rev limit should get 100kph in 2nd gear = perfect for my use(50-100kph tight, twisty mountain runs). But how much effect would the extra 50ish kg have on handling and braking?

4 out of 5 QLD engineers I have asked have said they would approve it, provided it had stock emissions equipment and was of the same or later year. The only 2 possibilities I can find are:

The GW5R Capella(straight neck with VAF) finished production in 2002 and would be the easiest and closest to a straight fit. Unfortunately the GW5R is rare and expensive. Can't find any emissions data.

The TA5P Millenia (curved neck with MAF, -02 meets ADR 37/01, 03 is Low Emissions Vehicle with a bit less power, pretty sure it is OBD-II) finished in 03 and is much cheaper and common. Can buy a whole car for $1,500!(+freight etc). But it has different stuff on it(intake etc) due to the different chassis.

Options for KL swap?

1. Import front cut, wreck or whole car for changeover and see what fits?(would still need gearbox and driveshafts as GW5R and TA5P are auto only)

2. Buy engine package(inc harness, PCM, MAF)for 2k and find GW5R or TA5P specific emissions bits? Mix and match MX6(cooling, gearbox etc) and 2.0L Protege(axles) parts for the rest.

I know it can physically be done.

I know it will cost more than I think.

I know I could buy a faster car etc.

I want to know FOR SURE it LEGALLY be done. I want the police to be ok with it and to be covered by insurance should there be an accident. 4 out of 5 engineers said yes. 1 just said no to imported engines, end of conversation. AAMI just wants it to be roadworthy/legal. QLD mods holine was a bit vague and said the police might take issue with it due to emissions. Will speak to police soon.

Any ideas?
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2002 Mazda 323 Astina 2.5 V6 manual.
KL-ZE 2.5 V6 with stock intake, stock headers, Magnaflow cat, custom midpipe with extra 12inch hotdog, Racing Beat catback.
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Last edited by Sleepy Gonzalez; 18-09-2010 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 04-09-2010, 09:58 AM   #2
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a guy on club323f has done this convertion
i will see if i can find the link
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Old 04-09-2010, 10:06 AM   #3
Sleepy Gonzalez
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KL into a 323F or a BJ?

Good news so far. I just spoke with a couple of Police officers at the Traffic Branch. They said as long as it has a blue plate and registered correctly, they're ok with it. One of them had put a 308 into a patrol too, so he knows at least something about conversions.
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2002 Mazda 323 Astina 2.5 V6 manual.
KL-ZE 2.5 V6 with stock intake, stock headers, Magnaflow cat, custom midpipe with extra 12inch hotdog, Racing Beat catback.
BC Racing coilover kit, Mazdaspeed 25mm front stabiliser, Progress 22mm rear stabiliser, GTSpec front and rear strut tower braces.
Enkei RPF1 15x7, Yokohama Advan Neova AD08 205/50 R15, RDA slotted rotors, HPX pads.

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Old 04-09-2010, 10:35 AM   #4
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323f and astina are the same thing
and yes a BJ
the BG astina sp was called 323f GT hence why our site has GT at the end of its name
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:16 PM   #5
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I would consider getting a jap spec FS-ZE (127KW) and installing that.
Much easier and shouldn't require re certification as its teh same motor
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:57 AM   #6
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Still the same problems as the engine he has now though. Actually its amplified a little.

KL-ZEs are great engines. If you can find a way to do it its meant to be a great conversion. In terms of handling the extra weight isnt that noticeable AFAIK, one of the original people to do it (French Canadian peeps) has/had videos of him racing his stock KL-ZE Protege around a track and was doing very well. Thats not to say that there wasnt some effect just that obviously it isnt too bad
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Old 05-09-2010, 07:27 AM   #7
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Check this thread out:
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showt...hp?t=123749499

It has heaps of information on the swap and a detailed parts list.
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Old 05-09-2010, 07:38 AM   #8
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:06 PM   #9
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The problem you have is the only KL-ZE officially imported with that engine are rare Ms-8's and odd Mx-6's and I think they got in under private or similar rules.
Because the only Wagona you can bring in are Diesel of 4WD version's. the KL-ZE was only FWD automatic by the late GW shape and emiisons testing has not been done.

To do the swap you need to find out if anyone has the date sheets of that engine for emissions testing.
it's easy for a 626 or mx-6 because it's in effect a japanese verson of that engine but it's testing is back to 1991 and so it makes it an older engine.

It may of lasted till 2002 but I don't know of anyone bringing in that model engine here as complete car. Probelry need to search the complice listings for someone who has a plate for that car and see if you can get the emissions data.
As all you have to do then to really get it legal anywhere is meet or beat the offical testing.

the FS-ZE is easier conversion but also same issue but I got feeling you might find one might not have to go through same issues.
The extra weight issue is NOTHING. because it's like a BA 1.8L V the 2.0L V6 the 2.0L feels better in alot of cases because the weight is spread more across the axle and feels lower.

But your originally state you like the economey etc handling.
Try to remember - you put in 2.5L 200HP is going to use the same sort of fuel as 200HP 4cylinder. HP numbers are just fuel numbers.

FS-ZE injectors same as size in effect as Fe.2.0L DOHC - same saze as 2.2L turbo same size you would find as 1.8L alfa - all engines make similar power add in KL-DE you would find borken down same flow rate.

so your economey will be hurt by any hunting for more power.

IMO best easier options and legally turbocharged it get it tested, done job.
you still use mroe fuel but offset it by driving it off boost. the engine becomes more efficent and uses just a tad more. High HP N/A use more fuel due to makign up for the torque hole that turbo or FI engine produces.
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:59 PM   #10
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FS is pointless really - you'll just have a pseudo SP20, but worth a lot less than either your car stock or an SP20.

TA5P would be the most interesting and fun, and once you get it in there, then you can always upgrade the heads/intake etc and who's going to know? Not the engineer, RTA or a cop.

Take all your research on specs etc to the chosen engineer, and the pertinent info from someone that's done the conversion before (that thread above- even if it's US based, it'll still have the basics. ), and get him to go through it with you in detailed fashion He's be able to give you a better idea of what's required, and if there's anything that he doesn't like that would need to changed/modified to make him happier about it.
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Old 05-09-2010, 01:55 PM   #11
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Shame you just cant stick the turtle cover off the a SP20 on top of the KL-ZE and claim its a FS :P
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Old 05-09-2010, 08:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice88 View Post
Shame you just cant stick the turtle cover off the a SP20 on top of the KL-ZE and claim its a FS :P
If you ask me why do you need to make it perfectly legal. Oh that's right becuase you know the cops are going to look under. In most cases at worst a car accident - no one is going to pick up a wrong engine unless it's toally different but even then other then engine no. who's going to care of look.
Speaking from experience here, in most cases people who get done on it ASK FOR IT.
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Old 05-09-2010, 09:21 PM   #13
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he asking for help not witless commentary.
however as far as accidents go, no ones gonna care what the engine is if its sitting in your backseat, and its very rare you would find a cop who can pick an engine from a car especially in australia where we seem to have a larger market for the common high performance engines, sr20 etc. hell my mate got pulled over by a cop who had a look under and didnt notice the atmospheric BOV or thepod filter out in the open or even the fact his exhaust is well over the 90dB or whatever its supposed to be
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Old 07-09-2010, 12:29 PM   #14
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FS-ZE is an option and tempting for the apparent simplicity of the swap. But that could be a lot of hassle for the sake of a vibrating, yukky sounding I4 with a bit more power. It would still need a blue plate with the power increase and being an imported engine.

I've been following the Slotege thread since it started. Nice of him to post up so much detail.

The engineer said emissions tests are not required in QLD, even if it was never available in Australia, provided it comes with all the standard emissions equipment. This surprised me, but I'll take it if I can!

The point of the swap is not just to get more power, it's what to do when the current engine needs repair. If I'm going to spend alot of money on the engine, I would prefer to upgrade it than just have what I started with. I'm not really interested in boosting this long suffering engine/gearbox and hasteninig their demise. A higher rev limit is more useful to me than boost on the particular roads I drive on anyway(2nd gear tight twisties).

I understand economy will be worse, of course. But that's the price of power and it will still be better than big sixes/V8s lugging 1,600+kg anyway. The KL-ZEs power, rev limit, smoothness and fantastic sound should be worth the extra fuel! I've just got to work out if I can get it in there!

The resale value is of no concern now since I have no plans to sell it, there is no finance (never was and I bought it NEW), it has done over 242,000km and a bit chopped up and modified already. It's a long term project too. If a swap happens, it will be a while yet(unless the current engine gives up sooner rather than later).
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2002 Mazda 323 Astina 2.5 V6 manual.
KL-ZE 2.5 V6 with stock intake, stock headers, Magnaflow cat, custom midpipe with extra 12inch hotdog, Racing Beat catback.
BC Racing coilover kit, Mazdaspeed 25mm front stabiliser, Progress 22mm rear stabiliser, GTSpec front and rear strut tower braces.
Enkei RPF1 15x7, Yokohama Advan Neova AD08 205/50 R15, RDA slotted rotors, HPX pads.

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Last edited by Sleepy Gonzalez; 18-09-2010 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 07-09-2010, 02:07 PM   #15
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are you planing this build on the basis of street hill runs?
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:12 AM   #16
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Pretty much. I'm not interested in big power/high speeds/drag racing etc. It's a practical econobox that seems to do ok on tight twisty hill runs, which I really enjoy.

I'm just trying to decide what to do with the engine and gearbox, now that it's getting to be highish mileage and the rest of the car is nearly done, except for seats.

Rodhog: I enjoy your posts and appreciate your experience with older Mazdas, so any input in this area is appreciated, I just don't want to turbocharge this engine at the moment.
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2002 Mazda 323 Astina 2.5 V6 manual.
KL-ZE 2.5 V6 with stock intake, stock headers, Magnaflow cat, custom midpipe with extra 12inch hotdog, Racing Beat catback.
BC Racing coilover kit, Mazdaspeed 25mm front stabiliser, Progress 22mm rear stabiliser, GTSpec front and rear strut tower braces.
Enkei RPF1 15x7, Yokohama Advan Neova AD08 205/50 R15, RDA slotted rotors, HPX pads.

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Old 08-09-2010, 08:20 AM   #17
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great engines, the sound is worth it.

Getting the ecu as well with the KL-ZE?
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:47 AM   #18
Sleepy Gonzalez
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Yes. IF I go with the KL option(I don't know if I will yet), all stock emissions related equipment is required for the engineers approval: intake, exhaust, computer etc. I might get away with CAI and exhaust though.
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2002 Mazda 323 Astina 2.5 V6 manual.
KL-ZE 2.5 V6 with stock intake, stock headers, Magnaflow cat, custom midpipe with extra 12inch hotdog, Racing Beat catback.
BC Racing coilover kit, Mazdaspeed 25mm front stabiliser, Progress 22mm rear stabiliser, GTSpec front and rear strut tower braces.
Enkei RPF1 15x7, Yokohama Advan Neova AD08 205/50 R15, RDA slotted rotors, HPX pads.

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Old 28-09-2010, 04:34 AM   #19
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if your considering the kl-ze and fs-ze, why dont you do the mazdaspeed turbo conversion like I have with my sp20. Cheaper than a custom conversion, and with my completely factory standard fs-de unopenend engine travelled 200k +, i'm making 115kw at the wheels with 18'' not at the flywheel. Im sure any state of aus would pass this conversion alot easier than new engine fit and new litre capacity etc...
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Old 28-09-2010, 04:40 AM   #20
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also be cautious. I also in the past did a conversion into a suzuki mightyboy and went from 0.5l 4spd to 0.6l 5spd dohc turbo, and other people had done it, and asked the right people before, and afterwards, engineers wanted me to change a million things, so in the end i got the ****s and the car was still registered, so i didnt worry about it and just took it to the ''right'' people for rego checks, and it worked out
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