My New Plans

[dru]

set me back all up?

I have no idea, but the project just keeps getting pushed back further and further. I have been convinced to go for a VF10 instead of the VJ20, I am thinking about going a front mount (something like the xr6 turbo cooler) and then there is piping that needs to be made up and it just keeps going on....!

So i say I might have it done at the end of the year....depends how involved I get with it....while she is out though, i might polish up some bits too!

I will keep a tally of what it costs so at the end I can post it all up lol...so you might need to wait awhile.

[dru]

Well the project has come to a massive halt. The guy that I was getting the engine off has had financial troubles and doesnt know whether he will be taking my engine out and putting the bpt in his car or selling the bpt and leaving my engine in there! At least I havent handed over any cash yet!

Sucks arse, this might mean I will just have to save up cash and get a bpt or just build a tough n/a with what i have!

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by dru

Well the project has come to a massive halt. The guy that I was getting the engine off has had financial troubles and doesnt know whether he will be taking my engine out and putting the bpt in his car or selling the bpt and leaving my engine in there! At least I havent handed over any cash yet!

Sucks arse, this might mean I will just have to save up cash and get a bpt or just build a tough n/a with what i have!

Go the tough NA build I reckon!

Will get ample enjoyment out of it, and wont cost you the earth to insure

[Ian]

Turbo insurance costs are phun!

[Rupewrecht]

Only for you young-uns.

[Ian]

Yarr

I be the king, you tell me not why my insurance costs are high!

King I say! KING!
(Springs not sold here)

[dru]

Yeah a tough n/a would be nice, but I think my engine needs a decent rebuild before I look any further into it!

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by dru

Yeah a tough n/a would be nice, but I think my engine needs a decent rebuild before I look any further into it!

Rebuilding is a good opertunity to go all out.
higher compression, bigger bore, longer rods, stronger everything, knife edged crank, wild cams etc...push the redline up and you'll have something that is maybe almost as fun as an FI car...***AND*** you'll have the power on tap the second you put your foot down....no turbo lag etc.

[MeFo]

I'm still in 2 minds as to go turbo or stay NA. Economy is always an issue I guess, but I also do a lot of Highway travel. Honest opinions, which would be the better path?

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by MeFo

I'm still in 2 minds as to go turbo or stay NA. Economy is always an issue I guess, but I also do a lot of Highway travel. Honest opinions, which would be the better path?

I'm staying NA for economical reasons...

I love turbos... always been a fan of turbos... always wanted a turbo car..but when i finally got the means to get one, I realised it'd be more a case of save for the car, finance the insurance!

also, theres the breakage factor...no matter how strong the turbo motor, its always going to be after a little more care and attention then an NA.

A wild NA build can be more rewarding because you get to do a whole lot more to squeeze your power out (its not just a matter of winding up the boost)

Ok you'll probably never get to the kind of power FI will, but you'll have the power on tap...you're fuel bills will likely be less, and the car will probablys sound like a weapon...

Soooo I've decided to stay NA... eventually i'll go insane ape-face NA with insanely high redline and an engine thats built just as strong as i'd need it to be for moderate boost.. so the option will be there in the future, if NA isnt enough, to put lower comp pistons in and boost it..

Personally if i were you, i'd go NA...learn lots about your stuff....and then if the opertunity arises in teh future to boost, do that if it still presses your buttons

[ROB-80E]

Originally Posted by LordWorm

also, theres the breakage factor...no matter how strong the turbo motor, its always going to be after a little more care and attention then an NA.

How you figure that? Oil change every 5000kms, don't thrash it when it's not up to temp...how's this different to an N/A motor?

Originally Posted by LordWorm

A wild NA build can be more rewarding because you get to do a whole lot more to squeeze your power out (its not just a matter of winding up the boost)
...Personally if i were you, i'd go NA...learn lots about your stuff....and then if the opertunity arises in teh future to boost, do that if it still presses your buttons

If you're going to work an N/A, it's going to cost twice as much as a turbo motor to get decent bang for buck. I don't see how this is more rewarding, as it hits you harder in the back pocket.
Also if you're doing a propper N/A power build, your most expensive items like cams and pistons will have to be replaced, meaning pulling the engine AGAIN and rebiulding and also getting another set of cams reground that will better suit FI performance.

Originally Posted by LordWorm

Ok you'll probably never get to the kind of power FI will, but you'll have the power on tap...you're fuel bills will likely be less, and the car will probablys sound like a weapon...

Turbo engines generally (yes i used generally hehehe) make more power than n/a engine...more power = more fuel. FYI, a turbo vehicle will be more economical for freeway driving as the simple spinning of the turbo (not on boost) helps the engine not work as hard to get the air in.


Lordworm, this was nothing personal, was just using your comments to put forward my oppinions.

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by ROB-80E

How you figure that? Oil change every 5000kms, don't thrash it when it's not up to temp...how's this different to an N/A motor?


If you're going to work an N/A, it's going to cost twice as much as a turbo motor to get decent bang for buck. I don't see how this is more rewarding, as it hits you harder in the back pocket.
Also if you're doing a propper N/A power build, your most expensive items like cams and pistons will have to be replaced, meaning pulling the engine AGAIN and rebiulding and also getting another set of cams reground that will better suit FI performance.

Turbo engines generally (yes i used generally hehehe) make more power than n/a engine...more power = more fuel. FYI, a turbo vehicle will be more economical for freeway driving as the simple spinning of the turbo (not on boost) helps the engine not work as hard to get the air in.


Lordworm, this was nothing personal, was just using your comments to put forward my oppinions.

No personal offence taken... I'll just agree to disagree

GENERALLY SPEAKING people who go turbo without forthought and planning end up blowing things up.. They dont strengthen what needs strengthening, they wind boost up and things go snap. NA...you're never REALLY going to make the crazy nutcase kinda part breaking torque and power...and revs are really your ownly enemy (rodsnappage at high RPM would be costly).

Realise if you go from NA to FI more money needs to be spent, but you already have spent the BIG bucks strengthening the motor so going all out stupidty level boost isnt going to end with costly exploding engine parts.

As for fuel..well... agree to disagree. If you stay off boost you'll probably run economically, but if you've got it, aren't you inclined to use it? You can give an NA car a decent hiding and it wont overly hurt your economy..give an FI car the same hiding and its going to just chew fuel.

I've got Absolutely nothing against turbo motors....but the cost of having a turbo is prohibitive for me (something like $15k engine hardening exersize before going NEAR it with a turbo...), and many others... Reminded of something a venerable engine builder on this forum once told me... you can get any motor to make 300hp with FI...doesnt meant he motors any good... if you get an NA motor making 300hp, you know its built to withstand just about anything.

For reliability, economy, and lack of insanity level insurance premiums, the money spent on an NA build is money well spent in my humble opinon..


But hey, whatever tickles your mum

[rodhog]

I have to agree with both opinions.

but just on some issues

like lordworm your last comment don't make sense to me on 300HP with FI and 300HP N/A, will with stand anything.
Reason I say this is I've seen all ends off all.
Fact it evey motor is different, the simple change for FI for some motors makes them excellent for others it does not make them that great.
A N/A motor stressed is more likely to go off then FI motor, no matter how well setup both are. I've seen more N/A V8's and twin cam 4's spit rockers valve springs and my favourite bent valves, over any turbo motor. Most turbo motors just go pop. 80% gasket or ring related. rods throguh the side of any motor is major down fall.


A good example is the mazda F2 motor in the 626 and turbo versions. Now I'll add in your econ bit as well.
but the F2 normally makes no power, but it makes lots of torque - FI makes it get power. Yet this motor is strong because it's base is strong. Even aftermarket rods on BP look tiny to it's stock N/A rods.
All because of it's bore to storke ratio making it long stroke thing. you would never get 300HP out of it and make it reliable. but you could out a SR20 or a FEDOHC or even BP.
My point being some motors will make power others will not. This is where FI can over come it.
The power out put on BP when turbo charged went up only what 30% really or so from factory.
where as the F2 went up almost 40%. yet it uses a SOHC head versues a DOHC. A head desgined for torque not power.

Of course mor power = more fuel. I had a station wagon 626 easily got 7.0L to the 100km on the freeway - No worries pulled around 1300Kg with auto. worst was about 9.5 in the city average 8. NO bull****, when fuel was $1.00 we filled up on $25 a week. daily driven 22K plus all the other stuff. I did newcaslte blue mountains and home 1 tank. with load.

Now with BA astina hardtop auto 2.0L quad cam it uses on average 10L freeway same can't find a difference. down 200CC more advanced motor less weight it's only 12??Kg and it's more areodynamic. the motor makes the same power as my F2T did when stock. yet It's getting same economy as my F2T did auto running well. No unichip a good unichip and I saw another 100km out of tank from the Mx-6. add to it the tank is smaller in the Ba astina.

th whole reason to the economy is power made with out revs - revs make fuel go. but if you motor creates torque adaquite without FI you dont' need to use it all the time.
Eg 4.0L falcon can drive aroudn blown box 1st and 2nd gear never get over 3000rpm.
I driven taxi's a fair bit in my past, let me tell you now. I once forced my self on late shift not to go over 2500rpm. It was so easy. I learned to drive it like that. in out of traffic in city. The owner could not figure out how I only used the card for fuel 10 times in one week usually it's about 20-30 times.

my mate ran his mx-6 normal no major mods and thrashed it . He now has a SSS N15 - he uses the same amount of fuel.In fact he thinks more so.

turbo motors are just as reilable , take note When F1 had 1300HP turbo motors they were only 1.5L imagine how good now and how powerfull if they were built today.

But I do understand the N/A benifits - only if you look at them in the right way.
First to get the benifits you need a good motor to start with IMO.
A close to square - stroke to bore ratio is best. END of story it needs to rev, to make power.
but N/A's do have the main benifit of a smoother power delivery, problem is it's not the power delivery it's the torque HIT, is gone. I love original type R's and RWd 1600CC cars reving nuts off. The control you get in the throttle in corner is alot better then any turbo car. To get that in a turbo car. you need a expansive rev range and supercharger like setup from the turbo. ususally means small turbo - low to mid range boost. It can be done. But a N/A still has the flatter torque hit . It builds up to it. and if you can get the majic cross of peck torque to max power 2000rpm before redline, it makes a great car.
The problem is you need a light virchle. to get the power to weight or should I say roll on accelleration from the torque to make it god decent. The only other way is cuibic inches. V8's can easily be stroked as it takes bit before you go pass a short stroke ratio in most v8's the new Ford one's being a bit different.
cubic inches fill the torque hole when you don't your heads flowing.
which is problery the only other problem.
If you ever been in a worked GTI SWIFT, cammed V8 or Camed 6, you know what a a good power motor does at lights. but IMO amazingly the sound of a good cammed up n/A motor is to die for it's better then any bull crap turbo sounds.
pulling a gear back at 10,000rpm or close to is just like sex.

but for everything setup is compromise. by the engine or owner.

Your point on insurance premiums IMO is kind of useless. As I can tell you now N/A versus turbo is no real difference. A friend wanted 360 spyder - insurance $10,800 he's 28 average recorred he's got the gear. Down to porsche to try last model egg 911 turbo 4WD blah black - he ended up getting it, $5700. It ended up costing more for the porsche, once all the stuff was done.

for me even I can ownd a Tx-5 N/A $1500 I own a turbo version $1500 it does not matter.
I was even thinking late model N/A cars cost the same as any late model turbo. A difference might be $300 but what's $300 if you plan to put on a 3inch exhaust blah blah etc.

For me it's not FI or N/A it's all about Torque, the more in a lighter car the better. it's all I look for.

[Rupewrecht]

I'm with Rob'n'Rod on this one.

For Dru to get similar power and torque from an NA buildup compared to going a GTX install, he'd be spending more and it'd be a lot more hassle.

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by Rupewrecht

I'm with Rob'n'Rod on this one.

For Dru to get similar power and torque from an NA buildup compared to going a GTX install, he'd be spending more and it'd be a lot more hassle.

I was never indicating he should get "simillar power and torque" NA...

However, for a simillar outlay of cash, he could get a party machine NA car, thats got enough grunt to be fun without being a world beater, that'll never give him grief, that'll be tough as nails etc.

And, you could consider any NA rebuild work as prep work for a turbo in the future (Stronger internals etc)

Thats all I was getting at.

[Rupewrecht]

Originally Posted by LordWorm

I was never indicating he should get "simillar power and torque" NA...

However, for a simillar outlay of cash, he could get a party machine NA car, thats got enough grunt to be fun without being a world beater, that'll never give him grief, that'll be tough as nails etc.

And, you could consider any NA rebuild work as prep work for a turbo in the future (Stronger internals etc)

Thats all I was getting at.

Fair call. I was thinking more in terms of value for money.

I don't agree that a worked NA engine is any less fragile than a turbo engine. Both have to be looked after with the same degree of care. Maybe that's just me

And not sure if i agree with the NA = FI prep work though. Depends how far you go down the path of worked NA when you change the mind to go FI i suppose. Different cams and pistons, but the rest could carry over...maybe

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by Rupewrecht

Fair call. I was thinking more in terms of value for money.

I don't agree that a worked NA engine is any less fragile than a turbo engine. Both have to be looked after with the same degree of care. Maybe that's just me

And not sure if i agree with the NA = FI prep work though. Depends how far you go down the path of worked NA when you change the mind to go FI i suppose. Different cams and pistons, but the rest could carry over...maybe

no doubt you'd still need to change things, but the reinforcing (speaking from the perspective of a BJ owner here! our rods might as well be made of chalk for all the strength they have) should carry over.

And i'll agree that an FI engine isnt fragile - IF its been done properly. Stock turbo motor - fine. Idiot no hoper wannabe street racing WRX owner who just gets the boost wound up - not fine... If you want to make big power out of a turbo car, you have to spend the big money on the same big ticket items you do for NA cars....rods, pistons (all be it low comp instead of high comp), crank etc or else things are gunna blow up quickly. NA is a little more forgiving in that department i believe, probably because there is no way to go from nothing to insane levels of power with a few minutes of tinkering like there is on a turbo when you wind up the boost.

[MeFo]

Ok, another question then... How much HP could I expect to get out of a NA BP? An approximation...

[LordWorm]

Originally Posted by MeFo

Ok, another question then... How much HP could I expect to get out of a NA BP? An approximation...

How long is a piece of string? really depends on what you plan to do, and how completely nuts you want to go.

[rodhog]

that is so true.

but realisic. A BP with a good N/A mod approach with no bottom end internal mods you should net about 120 to 130Kw's stock. that is flywheel figure, it should not be hard to achive. I remember with mates building a 1800cc isuzu motor in a gemini, it was SOHC we put out 140 HP rear wheels, this was with a pair of webbers, custom grind cam, shaved head on a 2nd hand bottom end that had done 80,000k's. This too was back in mid 90's.

if you went bottom end up, a streetable setup would net you clsoe to 200HP flywheel.
any more and it won't be very streetable at all. As you will be on the rough side.
On smaller shortstroke motor it won't matter as much. But with any square or long stroke motor making it rev more, it actually finds it self harder to rev out. it's one of them weird things that occurs with enignes.

I personally would only ever aim at 180HP n/A for a 1.8L and about 200HP out of a 2L N/A not saying you can't get more or do more. I just find everytime someone does the trade offs are massive. yeah look at VTEC motor's but tha'ts why it's great system.
add to it you might end up with motor power full motor, you you don't have light weight on your side. 1200KG is not light enough, for the amount of torque.

you also have to remember the more power you make the lower and shorter your torque range becomes, making in alot of cases the car slower.
I've seen it many times before.
In fact when TX3's were king back early 90's, a friend had a n/A one moded with turbo drive line and 4WD it was heavy but the mild work to motor only improved it's over all performance. Okay a turbo 4Wd would get him top end but in most cases anytime a turbo driver lost boost they lost the race. Espeacily back in the day when some races were over long periods of road. Ps I am talking about 94 -96, GSR's were just starting to take over.

Ps this not new or recent and I don't encourage it. Just making a point out.