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Old 05-02-2013, 10:44 AM   #1
BG1.8sp
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RE: V6 swap in BJ

hello!

random post here... but i am spit balling some ideas around....

Now... the KL swap is a little bit of a pain in the ass, in terms of finding one new enough for my chassis ('01) to be able to get it certified.

so... my thoughts are... GY-DE 2.5L V6 or the AJ 3.0L V6.
EDIT: 2.5L i can get out of the series 1 MPV (2001) and AJ can be had out of the series 2 (2002)
which makes it perfect for emissions side of the swap.
Edit again: it was the Duratec 25 (2.5L)/30 (3L)

I believe Ford used the AJ too... (called a different name... but it have a '30' in it )
Jaguar also used the AJ V6
there isn't a great deal of info that I can find on these engines.

they have a lot more compact design to fit into the MPV and the AJ still makes decent power.

i can see many issues with this swap though....
i have a feeling that i will need to basically rewire the entire car, and they only came Auto.
... so... what manual Gearbox would bolt up to the Aj and the GY v6's.
or would this be more of a custom bell housing adapter?


as above, the Intake Mani is super compact so would create issues with the master cyl, etc.

and as for mounts? custom crossmember?

only reason why i am suggesting this... is because i can get my hands on an entire MPV that's been rear ended for very cheap... like we are talking 1000-1500 for a complete car lol!

I know it would most certainly be more work than the KL swap... but cost wise could potentially be less. And i can source all parts locally!
and there are weirdly quite a few mods that can be done with the AJ and heaps of off the shelf performance items... including loads of ECU upgrades


Is this idea way to far fetched? am I dreaming? lol
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:18 AM   #2
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:40 AM   #3
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the AJ-DE and GY-DE is a FORD POS
I've driven MPVs with both of them... slow turds, uninspiring... the AJ-VE in the USDM Mazda6 was barely better.. so boring

it's also a cheap crap motor... oil pan gaskets always goes bad and leaks like a sieve, exhaust routing goes right around the oil filter making a huge mess, motor is an all ford design making changing spark plugs involve removing the intake manifold... PCV valve issues, sludge prone, a heavy turd of a motor, etc

the KL-ZE may have less power on paper, but it's a much more peppy engine, very rev happy, very stout motor... the KL-ZE is also all mazda and is a straight bolt on!

manual transmission options are also limited... unless you can find a ford or jaguar to get these gearboxes out of, your only practical choice is to use the A65M-R from the USDM Mazda6... in other words, whether you're pursuing an AJ-VE or KL-ZE, you're still importing major components... then you'll have to deal with making a cable shifter to work with the BJ as that's what the Mazda6 uses
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:54 AM   #4
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the AJ-DE and GY-DE is a FORD POS
I've driven MPVs with both of them... slow turds, uninspiring... the AJ-VE in the USDM Mazda6 was barely better.. so boring

it's also a cheap crap motor... oil pan gaskets always goes bad and leaks like a sieve, exhaust routing goes right around the oil filter making a huge mess, motor is an all ford design making changing spark plugs involve removing the intake manifold... PCV valve issues, sludge prone, a heavy turd of a motor, etc

the KL-ZE may have less power on paper, but it's a much more peppy engine, very rev happy, very stout motor... the KL-ZE is also all mazda and is a straight bolt on!

manual transmission options are also limited... unless you can find a ford or jaguar to get these gearboxes out of, your only practical choice is to use the A65M-R from the USDM Mazda6... in other words, whether you're pursuing an AJ-VE or KL-ZE, you're still importing major components... then you'll have to deal with making a cable shifter to work with the BJ as that's what the Mazda6 uses
okay... lol well there goes that... was just a random thought that had come across my mind whilst "working" today

Gearbox is the biggest issue. as you said... end up importing major components anyway. (I couldn't live with an auto). plus cable shifter, and no doubt a rewire. and unsure of crossmember and mounts etc.

i will just stick with the KL and find the newest one possible (bye bye money! lol). But i guess its loads easier!

Seems Its just as easy to go for a K24/20 instead of an AJ V6 lol.... probably just a much work. rofl.

yeah ok.... KLZE it is.


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got a linkypoo? i found them a while ago... but cant find them no more!
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:06 PM   #5
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Review new adr ammendments taking effect in April. See if you'll still be able to comply.
Arnt these for QLD only??
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:34 PM   #6
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Review new adr ammendments taking effect in April. See if you'll still be able to comply.
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Arnt these for QLD only??
Yeah, QLD only, so why apply to a car registered in NSW, Aaron will have to deal with the engineer & RTA for this

Carry on, im intrigued by this conversion
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:19 PM   #7
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Yeah, QLD only, so why apply to a car registered in NSW, Aaron will have to deal with the engineer & RTA for this

Carry on, im intrigued by this conversion
no wonder why I was confused about that statement! lol

Yep, have to get a Mod plate/ certificate and RTA for rego update and blue slip.

I have Pm'ed Ed, But this is what i asked:

Quote:
were there any changes to the KLZE engines between 1998 and 2002, with regards to emission controls??
and in that matter... and emission controls different between the aussie delivered KLDE and the later model ZE's?
If there was no change... do you have any Mazda workshop manual pages to back this up?

Just that when it comes time to getting this swap sorted... i want to be able to go and see Engineers with some documentation and see if i can put a 98, 99 or 00, engine into my car...
only because they are easier to get my hands on than the 2001 and 2002 engines
If i can get away with running the 99-00 KL, it would make the swap a decent bit cheaper and easier.

Would be even better if i could swap in a 96 KLDE. that way i can get it all in there and running... would be able to do the swap ULTRA cheap. then either buy another KLDE to do a full rebuild (hicomp pistons), headwork and cams.
OR
then I could import a KLZE...
then its just a matter of removing engine and refitting the ZE straight in (basically).

I will behaving a chat to a few engineers here to get their thoughts and feedback about the swap... and actually see for certain if this swap can be done Legit in NSW... rather than just assuming some stuff and guessing others.

End of the day... its the Engineer that says yes or no and has his interpretation of the law and what cars/ mods he will approve.


The thought of the 2002 3.0V6 was only due to the fact its locally available and wouldn't be an issue for age of motor vs age of car... they are super cheap to get an entire MPV that's been written off with everything swap.

But Then you are looking at more complications when it comes to Engineering and Blue slip... like the possibility of custom cross member and engine mounts etc. and the whole fact that you cannot get a damn MPV in manual! so have to import a Gearbox or do some wild modifications with bell housing adapter to try and get something else to fit.

The KL is a far easier swap in that sense
but then there is the down side of cost... although, after that many mods to get the 3.0 to fit... it would probably work out cheaper anyway to do the KL.

and the KL has been "tried and tested" as such.

the downside is getting a 2001 + KL is a tad exxy and difficult...
but hey... i have 8 months to save and research and ask 1Million people 10Million questions rofl
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:26 PM   #8
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Sure you wanna go down this path? Lots of cars out there with same end power result for same money but less effort. I must be just getting lazy in my old age.
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:36 PM   #9
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Sure you wanna go down this path? Lots of cars out there with same end power result for same money but less effort. I must be just getting lazy in my old age.
I want the Uniqueness of a V6 into the BJ chasis.
and i also want rhe Reliability of an engine that is performing the way its was designed to perform...

rather than pushing the stock internals of the FS and making the same power.
Plus... the KL sounds so damn sweet, and has the potential for great power and responds fantastic to boost.

The swap really isnt difficult at all... its just getting the certification and Mod plate, etc
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:54 PM   #10
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the extra expense for the KL-ZE is worth many times over the AJ... less headaches, less custom work = better chances of seeing it through
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:08 PM   #11
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the extra expense for the KL-ZE is worth many times over the AJ... less headaches, less custom work = better chances of seeing it through
exactly
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:36 PM   #12
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here is some info posted by sleepy (few threads down from this one) but will post it up for searching reference anyway.

Quote:
If working from a front cut, these are the extra bits I can think of to put the KL-ZE in a BJ 1.8 Astina:

Engine mount brackets No 1,2,4 from a 2.0L (KL No 3 bracket and all BJ mounts fit)
Left and right axles from a 2.0L. So an SP20 already has a head start and would be cheaper.

GE MX6 gearbox, clutch, flywheel, starter, clutch release cylinder and intermediate shaft.
Power steering feed hose
Brake booster hose if you don't want to drill through the firewall
Custom radiator and condenser mounts. Very tight fit with some trimming of the radiator support panel required
Custom fresh air duct mount
Throttle cable bracket redrilled to fit
Custom air conditioning pipes and hoses (I haven't done mine yet)
Either use BJ instrument cluster with a Dakota Digital SGI-8 tacho converter and figure out a fix for the battery light, OR swap the GW PCB into the BJ cluster and use a Dakota Digital SGI-5 speedo calibrator.

Front to rear engine mount member holes slotted to move it forward a bit to allow No 2 mount to fit
Stock BJ power steering pressure hose threaded through bake lines under master cylinder
Exhaust midpipe cut to fit. I already had a Racing Beat cat back with an extra 12 inch hot dog and high flow cat. Lined up ok and sounds really nice.
Wired up fans as per BJ. Radiator fan works fine.

AC pipes from GW fit with some careful bending and very tight fitting. Deleted the hose that loops around the fan.

Wiring mostly swapped between connectors using a tiny flat screwdriver to remove the pins. Very little cutting involved, but a LOT of time taken to figure it out with no diagrams for the GW. BJ PCM completely removed. Most of the North Americans wire the two computers in parallel and do a mix and match hack job from junkyard parts. Having the front cut makes it much neater.

Weighbridge I used only measures to nearest 20kg, but by pushing and pulling on it you can see which way it's rounding. 1,170-1,180kg.

I think this would be a relatively simple conversion for a workshop with all the tools, skills and space to do it, but it was a huge project for me, especially since I could not find any other swaps from the GW5R. It seems to be a rare car with very little information available and has some diffences to the older versions that the Americans seem to use.


PCM pinout table for KLS8-18-881B in GF-GW5R
Plug Pin Wire colour Purpose
1 A B/O GRD engine block
B W/B MAIN RELAY POWER
C B/W GRD engine block
D B/W GRD engine block
E Y/G RHO2S
F Y DISTRIBUTOR
G O DISTRIBUTOR
H L/B LHO2S
I L/R +B ROOM 10A
J X
K LG/R VRIS right
L L/Y VRIS left
M X
N GY/B Ignition
O X
P X
Q GY/R IAC
R V/W TACHO
S R/W FUEL PUMP RELAY
T G/Y PURGE CONTROL SOLENOID
U R INJ R
V W/B INJ L
W GY INJ R
X R/Y INJ L
Y W INJ R
Z V/G INJ L
2 A X
B LG/B VAF
C L/W RHO2S
D R/B LHO2S
E R/L ECT
F BR/Y TPS SIGNAL?
G X
H X
I P/L VREF?
J X
K L/B VAF
L V/Y TPS IDLE SWITCH?
M L/W KNOCK SENSOR
N X
O B/R SENSOR GRD
P L/B POWER STEERING PRESSURE SWITCH
3 A AUTO
B AUTO
C AUTO
D AUTO
E AUTO
F AUTO
G AUTO
H AUTO
I AUTO
J AUTO
K AUTO
L AUTO

Part Brand Model Part number - Supplier - AUD

GW5R front cut. KL-ZE straight neck. OEM GW5R - Allmaz - $3200

MX6 gearbox with inner right driveshaft VSS/starter/clutch/flywheel/intermediate shaft(93?) OEM MX6 93-97 G series - Allmaz - $200

Freight for Allmaz parts - Blenner's - $538

Axles EMPI 2.0L Protege 80-3782/3 - rwiamerica - $360

No.1,2,4 mount brackets OEM 2.0L Protege - OMP - $162

power steering hose and clamps - Hydraulink - $50

brake boost hose and clamps - Supercheap - $10

Custom radiator and intake snorkel mounts - Cape York Auto - $558

Blue plate - Cape York Auto - $100

Speedo calibrator Dakota Digital SGI-5C - Dakota Digital - $85

Airconditioning- modify, fit, flush, oil, gas. - Cairns Car Airconditioning - $396

TOTAL: $5659
parts in Bold don't need to be purchased for an SP20.
and parts in bold will vary in cost... depending on local shop prices and RTA fees, and your handy work.

EDIT: just in parts (very roughly) not including RTA fees and engineering would would be looking at approx 3.5K. then you add aircon regas, engineers slip, RTA fees and other servicing items... I would say 7K total for the swap (with timing belt, head gaskets etc.)
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:24 PM   #13
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Why cant u get a mx6 half cut?? That will have everything
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:43 PM   #14
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because the MX-6 is a GE... there's too many things that are different (mostly electric) in the GE compared to the GF/GW... there's also a good number of minor but significant parts in the GF/GW in the engine bay that got redesigned over the GE.... since the BJ has shared chassis parts/characteristics with the GF, it's better to use the GW5R parts... he still needs to supply a locally sourced GE 626/MX-6 or MX-3 gearbox though... I don't know if mounts are different between the GW5R's 4WD and the USDM GF 626 V6... no big deal... electrics and other minor parts is the utmost concern for a clean working install
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:57 PM   #15
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A toatled (written off) MX6 it's quite a possibility... Only be side how dirt cheap they go (due to the no more "reapearable write off" law)

Small shunt in the rear = a $500-600 MX6... Can use all the gearbox components + the radiator out of it then sell for scrap and sell the leftover bits.
Cheapest way to do it. Can't use the engine because its older and as ed said above... Will just be more of a headach swap wise... Aswell as a drama for the engineering.

Would mean the only thing left to buy is the KLZE itself, with loom and ECU.
Then it's down to just the other smaller stuff like a few hoses.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:27 PM   #16
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I have to say I'm impressed that you're researching and planning to do this. Most people don't understand the whole backyard mechanic thing. They just say "why wouldn't you just buy a new car?"
But that's not the point.

Good luck to you and I look forward to seeing your progress!
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:00 PM   #17
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I have to say I'm impressed that you're researching and planning to do this. Most people don't understand the whole backyard mechanic thing. They just say "why wouldn't you just buy a new car?"
But that's not the point.

Good luck to you and I look forward to seeing your progress!
Thanks dude!
Going to be ages though... P plates for 8-9 months.

Thinking of getting an engine in a few months, and start a rebuild/ freshen up and all servicing. Do it over the space of like 6months.
Then once ready go get a box and do the swap.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:09 PM   #18
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good planning is the key to success, in anything
as for cars, I planned, inventoried all my tools, chemicals, and parts before I spent the entire weekend installing my OEM Mazdaspeed turbo kit... things didn't go without hiccups but it all went fairly smoothly... you can't plan for everything but you can plan to be prepared! For me I ended up having to buy new intercooler pipe clamps and a socket to remove the oil pressure switch (the specialised one I bought didn't work, ended up returning it and buying a regular deep socket)

for big projects like these, this is a must... I've seen my friends here in the local car club who don't plan for these big projects and just ended up wasting many hours driving back and forth to the parts store, getting substandard parts or parts that didn't fit and hacking together some **** to get the car going because it was their only car to get them to work!

Plan for long downtime... you need another car to drive during that downtime to get you to work or school... buy a cheap POS car if you have to.... if everything goes smoothly, then you won't have anything to worry about
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:11 PM   #19
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Sounds like a good way to do it.. that way you've got something to toy with which is going towards your project in the mean time
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:24 PM   #20
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Sounds like a good way to do it.. that way you've got something to toy with which is going towards your project in the mean time
yep, that's the plan.

The worst part about something like this is insurance.

ok... you have an 8K car... you spent 7K on engine swap and another 7K elsewhere...

you have now spent 22K total for your car. your insurance for comprehensive has now jumped up to 4K per year, and like 1.2K for third party at a minimum, just to cover around 16K.
if you insure the car comprehensive and no accident, you have lost loads of $$$, or,

you have an accident... but only third party... you loose $$$

that's what my brother was just reinforcing just then too.
and hence he didn't go ahead with a serious build for his old 180sx.

yes... he went and bought an evo, around the same cost as his s13 build would have been... and around the same insurance costs.

except, resale... one is only worth 15K tops... the other covered for 35K.
and in the end buying asset value is greater. so in the end, acident or resale, you loose less money buying a newer car than modifying something like my sp20.

But yeah... that's always something to consider.

Also saving for a house now too...

so definitely will be a slow build! lol
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