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Old 01-07-2004, 08:45 PM   #81
dfvadr
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guys u need to do a bit more home work on the b/b turbos they are far from an instaint boost as you discribe t28 at 8psi on a 2l with front mount is far from big boost an these turbo's can run anything from 2-20psi not going to run on boost from 1000rpm more like 2-2.5 if ur going to hammer it off the mark an want that sort off response you wouldn't even bother with anything we are discussing u would be better buying a nissan gtr or wrx or evo lancer , back on track here he wanted low boost an safe application an as i quoted it has been tested an proven to be the best application by both mazda and garrett turbo's america and australia with outsanding results

ur rite about a rebuild the b/b most cases would be a replacement not a rebuild an as for ur turbo a kit is $370 including the labour , but dont forget it is compulsary for ur style turbo to be idled down for at least 2 minutes so therefore a turbo timer is ur next app meaning more money ,as for the b/b turbo if you shut down straight away it runs on the bearings meaning less chance off a rebuild required were as the r/b the oil is the bearing so if u make a couple off shut downs by mistake no oil pressure up there no oil good bye turbo

all said i quiried that one myself about the rebuild an the cost factor an the ratio to b/b and r/b was something like 8 to 1 for rebuilds so im happy to spend the 1600 noing it should out last a r/b 8 to 1 mind you i say should the luck i have sometimes maybe not

as for running in a turbo car ive own 2 have 1 in this house now my brother has a wrx , im running direct injection b/b turbo trucks i been an owned my fair share i think
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Old 02-07-2004, 01:24 AM   #82
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Hey Rod,
I have no interest or intention to butt heads with you over turbo's mate each to
their own and if there was one simple answer we would all be using it.
I dont know how much of the "guys need to do homework" was applying to me
I hope I was clear with my expectations of a roller coming on full by 3300 and
a ball bearing coming on 300-500rpm earlier.
I think where we started to get on opposing sides was trying to compare the plan
you have for your car directly with Preeman80's the 2 are totally different. You
have a plan to add i/c, computer, decompress and add the T28 BB. I have always
agreed perfect combination for the SP20. Preeman80 started this string as a I
got a cheap turbo how can I bolt it on as cheap as possible with as little mods as
possible ie cut as many corners as you can. Then came the question about BB
and the responses were spend an extra $400 not because it was to go the the
perfect sized turbo but simply because it was BB. My response was that a roller
bearing will give similar performance if selected properly !! Are you positive the
A/R ratio of the S15 T28 is the same specs as your intended turbo cause you can
go from 200hp to 500hp within the one model.
One last thing with your 8-1 rebuilds. Dont you think there are probably 8-1 rollers
compared to BB being used. The S15 is the first T28 BB all the other 200sx are
roller bearing. All the Mazda's and Toyota's and non evo turbo's are roller. The
skyline turbo's are BB but everybody simply dumps them when they are blown so
non of them get rebuilt. But everybody knows you can rebuild a roller bearing.
I think your build will go well cause you have planned it but dont give yourself
false security that spending heaps more on the BB that it wont fail or that
you couldn't have achieved similar results without using a BB turbo.

Regards

Mal
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Old 02-07-2004, 10:56 AM   #83
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Guys... keep it cool :wink:

I do need to do my homework.. and this is why I am here... I know Jack. :mrgreen:

You guys know a lot more then I do! Mal, with regards to my setup, yes, I am looking at it to be cheaper, but only to the fact that I already had I turbo, therefore I was more looking at how can I make this work? I am under no illusion that this will cost, and it will cost a bunch!

I don't want to cut too many corners... :shock: I still want my car in 1 piece. 8)

I will be getting the Halteck E6X, but true, I will not be decompressing my engine, unless the group buy that andrew mentioned is going to happen.
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Old 02-07-2004, 11:05 AM   #84
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i still think in terms of turbo (and this goes for pretty much any mod you can do to a car), if you have the opportunity to upgrade to something better now, do it!
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Old 02-07-2004, 12:06 PM   #85
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And thats why speed shops love people like you. You go out and buy a big turbo
for more dollars and then have to scratch around for every cent so you can afford
to finsish off the project. Win Win for them as they get lots more money from you.
For me I leap frog. I get things that are just past my weakest link which in my
case is my gearbox and when I figure out a fix I then leapfrog just past the limits
of my next limitation. That way everything is balanced and I can enjoy it. I'll
give you an example of where I used your logic. I went a 3" exhaust instead of
2.5 like Tony's car because the price was almost the same. From day one I have
had boost cut problems becuase its too large for the VJ20 wastegate to handle.
My driving fun has been reduced because of it the fix is to put on a larger
wastegate which I am doing with a bigger turbo but of course that has a flow on
effect of all the other things I need to replace. If I had taken a smaller step my
car would have been more fun to drive I would of been happier and I really
wouldnt have cared about buying a new exhaust as would be selling my old one
anyway to help finance.
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Old 02-07-2004, 12:23 PM   #86
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i'm the sort of person that i upgrade 1 thing or set of items at once and that's the last time i need to touch them. i dont like to build up step by step because that way costs more in the long run...but i totally get where you're coming from. i had my head ported and big cams thrown in....great work, but still had the stock exhaust. lost lots and lots of power. now i have my new exhaust it's much better. when i getmy intake cam reworked it would be even better again. but that'll be the last time i'll touch my cams, head or exhaust system
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Old 02-07-2004, 12:28 PM   #87
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Scratching around to complete the project is my worst nightmare!


I want to know what I am going to be hit with, get it all and put it in. But offcourse... I will need new Clutch, garbox etc.. but later...
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Old 02-07-2004, 12:47 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JynX
I tend to agree with Mal. Considering you can pick up a VF8 or VF12 turbo in pretty good condition for around 500 its pretty hard to justify the additional $1300 or so for somthing which isnt really worth the extra dollars.

When I get the car out of the shop I will take you for a drive and you can make up your own mind about how quick the power delivery is. Dan may wish to comment here as he has done the big setup.
Got Lag?

compared to the stock turbo/Jimmeh's turbo, mine is quite laggy. it isnt fully spooled until 3500 i guess

but i prefer it really. off the line it takes a while to spool, but once it's going it'll reel you in quicksmart. it is overly big for the engine, but the top end rush can't be beaten. and it's cheaper on fuel (yes, thats not a misprint) as it's not always on boost like the little one is - which i find quite annoying really

and because it's so smooth/progressive in delivery, i dont have the traction problems (apart from off the line if i stuff it up)
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Old 02-07-2004, 03:18 PM   #89
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mal i think ur comparing a big b/b t28 an something that is an upgrade for high boost , the basic off the shelf t28 is only good for 300hp not to big at all for a 2litre now he said he had a front mount an also a computer upgrade was going to happen an i can assure you that a t28b/b on our motors will not spool up at 400 or even 1200 , it would be at least 1500+

you keep saying s15 200sx or wat ever but the interest is not in other cars ,its in a low boost with no engine mods to a sp20 motor now with his puter ,front mount and a t28 b/b he will have a nice drivable package through out the whole rev range , u guys are hell bent on running 12 -18pound boost thats not wat he or i for that matter want we want drivability ,an realiability , i have a td04l off a wrx now that is as big as a t28 but it has the wrong exhaust flow so if it was bolted to our engines the excessive heat build up would burn out the valves in the exhaust side by the way i have never said im putting in decompression plate or thicker gasket ,we spoke off it but i just want 8 psi on a standard motor thats smooth to drive through out the full rev range , as for price well if your going to do it do it once thats the cheapest as quoted by andrew
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2001 SP20 Mazda Astina Turbo
- t28b/b turbo teflon coated forge pistons 20thou o/size , billet rods , whole motor fully balanced
- custom body kit
- 18"ame's
- custom interior
- kenwood head unit , pioneer speakers driven by 800 watt amp , kicker subs driven by 1000 watt amps each sub [135.2db at supernats], two 1th caps 4 tv screens dvd player
- xbox
- airbag suspension with gas strut towers
- custom plates an airbrushing on bonnet
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Old 02-07-2004, 07:34 PM   #90
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Rod,
I keep on repeating my self so I will copy previous remarks so its clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by preeman80
Ball bearing Turbo as opposed to "Roller" bearing Turbo? any thoughts? worth the difference? I have an option to pay an extra 400 and trade in, get a 200SX Ball bearing turbo instead of the CT-26 turbo from the GT4
That is why I keep referring to a S15 T28. So you tell me is it the same as an off the shelf T28.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMal
If you are getting a 200SX turbo make sure its a S15 one the earlier ones weren't
as good. Ball bearings do spool up quicker but a well setup and SIZED roller
bearing will boost up real well. Jimbo's VF8 will have full boost by 3300.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMal
I dont disagree that the T28 BB is a perfect fit to a 1.8-2L and I also dont disagree that ball bearing is a better technology than roller bearing. What I am saying is that your going to pay $1300 more to get boost from a standing start 300-500 revs before me.
So by my maths 3000-3300rpm less 300-500revs = 2500-3000. I have never said they would build boost at 300rpm but I have said repeatedly
300-500 revs earlier.

Finally if people have read my remarks they have all been about the fact that preeman80 already owns a CT26 which already has a split pulse housing for better spool up and "ALL" I have been saying that you really dont need to spend an extra $400 to go ball bearing that a roller bearing can perform similar and the money would be better spent elsewhere.
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Old 02-07-2004, 08:07 PM   #91
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When I think about a project the first thing I need to consider is the budget, how much money can I afford to pour into the project and what is going to be estimated cost to run (ratios such as gearbox or diff per year) services, fuel, tyres, traffic infringements ops: etc...
Next what sort of bang for buck can I get and who can give me advice (good, bad or just plain ignorant) take all of it in, sort it out, ask more questions, rinse and repeat (just because two people have different views doesn't make one right and the other wrong).
In the end if your goal is an Astina with 130kw atw and to be a streetable daily driver then don't let anyone divert you from your goal. As BigMal wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMal
preeman80 already owns a CT26 which already has a split pulse housing for better spool up
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Old 03-07-2004, 10:41 AM   #92
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hey preeman is your turbo new or second hand and the 1 u can option for what was that going to be a new or 2nd hand reaso i ask is that i would not put on a second hand turbo with out having it checked out properly an the only way to do this is pull it down then you will have to put a kit in it anyway [no wat you have so ur not pulling it down again in 3 months ]
the other things you need to do is check the size off the housing on the inlet side [no good having a 50mm bore wen ur inlet is 58mm cant quiet rember the exact size
an the exhaust housing the manifold side where it bolts up the size off the hole to the flow ratio off the exhaust housing if its restricted at all u will cause motor damage

as the guys are say about you have a turbo [ i do here as well td04l off a wrx yer 2l but different exhaust ratios no good for my motor to many restrictions]

so as im saying i dont really care wat u put on
but ive been looking at this option for 12months now an i still dont have mine done why because i dont want to bolt anything on just to say im turboed i want to drive it as easy and as well as the standard motor did
now if u look at the history off turboed astinas and a few others i no off so far there is 1 problem or another too rich , want idle properly , to much lag , runs out at top end an so on ,

so as quoted if ur going to do a job do it once an once only its cheaper in the long run [ bit more up front yes but that car mobs through out ]

if you give me the housing sizes off ur turbo preeman ill check it out for you

just to give a quik example off cutting corners my son bought a turboed mirage yer looked good front mount all the gear went ok till the pistons were distroyed because the guy how built it did not spend the extra money to do it rite now $6000 later my sons car is back on the road with all the rite gear an drives butiful from idle to flat chat good luck be aware
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2001 SP20 Mazda Astina Turbo
- t28b/b turbo teflon coated forge pistons 20thou o/size , billet rods , whole motor fully balanced
- custom body kit
- 18"ame's
- custom interior
- kenwood head unit , pioneer speakers driven by 800 watt amp , kicker subs driven by 1000 watt amps each sub [135.2db at supernats], two 1th caps 4 tv screens dvd player
- xbox
- airbag suspension with gas strut towers
- custom plates an airbrushing on bonnet
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Old 03-07-2004, 05:42 PM   #93
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Rod,
Your son's experience basically hits the nail on the head of what I have been trying to say
for seven pages. Doesn't matter how good the computer is or how big the I/C is if you add
enough boost to induce detonation the you will blow the motor. That is why I have been saying
no to getting a bigger turbo where the volume of air per psi increases so you have to run less
and less boost and if you cant lower boost past the wastegate actuators lowest setting then of
course the chances of detonation have drastically increased with the bigger turbo.

Mal
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Old 03-07-2004, 06:40 PM   #94
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Rod,
Your son's experience basically hits the nail on the head of what I have been trying to say
for seven pages. Doesn't matter how good the computer is or how big the I/C is if you add

i understand where ur coming from but it preeman that needs the hard facts for his dollar , now as u have wrote there above your wrong my piont is my sons car had no computer an the guy that built it done a bogg job instead off spending the bucks an doin it rite the first time the reason it blew had nothing to do with bost it was simply not built rite an it kept leaning out through out the rev range causing it to ping but before they could recterfy the prob the damage was done
if its not going to be done rite dont do it basicly because you will an i garrentee it ur motor will not last
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2001 SP20 Mazda Astina Turbo
- t28b/b turbo teflon coated forge pistons 20thou o/size , billet rods , whole motor fully balanced
- custom body kit
- 18"ame's
- custom interior
- kenwood head unit , pioneer speakers driven by 800 watt amp , kicker subs driven by 1000 watt amps each sub [135.2db at supernats], two 1th caps 4 tv screens dvd player
- xbox
- airbag suspension with gas strut towers
- custom plates an airbrushing on bonnet
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Old 12-07-2004, 05:01 PM   #95
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Hi Guys, Woah.. lots to read through... but appreciate it all, have been overseas just getting back now..

I will check out the detailed measurements and post soon.. Thanks!
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Old 12-07-2004, 05:24 PM   #96
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glad to hear your back safe buddy
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- t28b/b turbo teflon coated forge pistons 20thou o/size , billet rods , whole motor fully balanced
- custom body kit
- 18"ame's
- custom interior
- kenwood head unit , pioneer speakers driven by 800 watt amp , kicker subs driven by 1000 watt amps each sub [135.2db at supernats], two 1th caps 4 tv screens dvd player
- xbox
- airbag suspension with gas strut towers
- custom plates an airbrushing on bonnet
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Old 12-07-2004, 09:32 PM   #97
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Rod, just heard you at a cruise.. 1 of my friends said ur car looked hot! nice work man!
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Old 12-07-2004, 09:39 PM   #98
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thanks man yer it was a good run [bar the rain ] spoke to alot off people cant remember names but everyone was freindly an all seem to have a good day i was approach by hot 4s wants me to contact them
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- t28b/b turbo teflon coated forge pistons 20thou o/size , billet rods , whole motor fully balanced
- custom body kit
- 18"ame's
- custom interior
- kenwood head unit , pioneer speakers driven by 800 watt amp , kicker subs driven by 1000 watt amps each sub [135.2db at supernats], two 1th caps 4 tv screens dvd player
- xbox
- airbag suspension with gas strut towers
- custom plates an airbrushing on bonnet
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Old 20-07-2004, 06:47 PM   #99
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FAARRKKKKK!!!!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

Just did my tax returns for the 02-03 (I know a bit late) and find out that my employer has not taken out any HECS from my pay!!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

What does this mean?? my tax for 02-03 means that I have to PAY the tax office approx. $1300!! What else does this mean?? my tax for 03-04 (which I am doing now) I will have to PAY another $1300!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

What does this all MEAN? I am down $2600 out of my pool of savings for this conversion!! that means it won't finish this year!!! F*CKED UP!!! :evil:

just stupid! oh BTW found out that the CT26 seems a bit out of wack, (i.e. the blades inside move when they shouldn't) there I will be buying a new turbo

So I guess the debate about what the most cost effective/suitable turbo will have to be carried out. I am going to try and find the cheapest prices on new turbos and see what you guys think!!

STILL NOT HAPPY!!! STUPID HECS!!! STUPID EMPLOYER!!! :cry:
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Old 20-07-2004, 06:53 PM   #100
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know the feeling. got done over the same way.

Turbo wise, hunt around for a VF12 for around $350/400. Would probably be a nice turbo for the BJ motor. If you want new, Critter was telling me he had a contact for Garrett turbos so he may be able to help you out.
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