oil consumption

jono165 · 09-04-2013, 10:28 AM

Hi all, I'm just after some advice on the oil consumption of my 323.

I have a Series 3 BA Astina 1.8 which only uses oil once the oil gets to about 2000-2500km old and smokes for a very brief time on startup on cold days. This only appears to be a problem once the oil has begun to degrade. It doesn't seem to use oil once the engine is hot. I get no noticeable smoke at high revs.

The engine has 197000 on it. I run 15W-50 Shell HX7 in it. Ive read the series 2 astinas a quite prone to piston ring problems is this also the case for the series 3's?

I'm about to change the timing belt so I think ill do the valve stem seals at the same time are these prone to failure at this mileage or is it more likely to be a ring problem? Is the best solution for now just to change the oil more often with a better oil?

Clean_Cookie · 09-04-2013, 10:32 AM

You could try going to a Penrite full synthetic oil, which is one of the few with zinc as an antiwear in it. May not help the problem but may stop it from getting worse. Series 3 were the worst.

project.r.racing · 09-04-2013, 10:38 AM

the symptoms of cold startup smoke point towards worn valve stem seals. just as common as worn rings.

worn oil rings normally mean smoke at high rpms, which you aint getting.

as for the oil degrading, that can happen, but not after 2500km. unless somehow it is being severly contaminated somehow or really cheap crap mineral oil.

valve stem seals isn't an easy job. the head needs to come off the block.

Clean_Cookie · 09-04-2013, 10:45 AM

I saw somewhere how to replace without removing the head but it looked way more effort and easy to lose something down the hole.

project.r.racing · 09-04-2013, 11:03 AM

you can put a bladder down into the camber and blow it up to hold the value up. but the when trying to refit the circlips and retainers and puting pressure on the springs. it's hard enough with the head out than with the head in working at weird angles. and there is oil everywhere. where's if you pull the head out, you'd clean it first before repairs.

removing the timing belt, he is 33% towards removing the head, so he might as well go the hole hog. drop the coolent and replace the head gasket.

i'd look at alternatives currently to doing any head work. if it is just the valve stems at are an issue, then the consumption should be too high to worry about. if the consumption amount is ringing alarm bells, then either the seals are really badly worn, or the is a secondry issue not known.

which would be worth investigating first, cos spending alot of money on the head only to find oil is still being consumed is gonna double the repair bill.

another thing to look at is money spent to repair versus time owning car. is it worth spending big money repairing, or just dealing with limited consumption. it is an old car, just gotta decide how old you are gonna keep it.

Clean_Cookie · 09-04-2013, 11:09 AM

Or for 300 buy a good used engine once it gets bad enough to warrant doing any work.

And thanks for the explanation Ryan.

jono165 · 09-04-2013, 11:40 AM

Thanks for the input.I'im not too worried about labour to fix it as I do everything myself, I've rebuilt gearboxes and heads before so nothing phases me. I have access to the correct tools to replace the valve stem seals with the head still on the car. parts for these Mazdas are pretty cheap if you know where to look.

The engine is a good runner other than the oil consumption but buying a 2nd hand engine is still a gamble. If I can determine that the problem is only the rings id probably just re-ring it, I'm not really planning on replacing the car in the near future.

MX5 forums point towards sticky oil control rings in the BP engine so I might try a better oil with a higher detergent content to see if that helps.

Clean_Cookie · 09-04-2013, 11:51 AM

Don't know how smart or true it was but its rumored that running diesel oil which has more detergents for a a few thousand kms can help clean it out...I'd not be game without a good understanding of the differences...just something I've heard.

jono165 · 09-04-2013, 12:04 PM

that is correct. diesel engines produce more ash. a lot of better oils are now rated to both diesel and petrol use so there should be no problem using that.

I think ill replace the stem seals when I do the timing belt, its not much extra work, use a better oil and make sure the PCV system is clean as a start.

jono165 · 11-06-2013, 09:52 AM

Just though I'd update this as its been a while.

My Mazda is just on 200,000km now. I replaced the timing belt, tensioners and water pump (bitch of a job almost worth paying someone to do) while that was all apart I did the valve stem seals. The old ones were rock hard. I tried the compresses air in the cylinder trick which I found sucked, nylon rope in the cylinder is the way to go.

I bought a tool like this for the valve retainers (http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-36200-Ke.../dp/B000P0ZJIS) which was worth every cent, just make sure you get the smaller one.

Also did new oxygen sensor, cam and crank seals, PCV valve and thermostat. I changed oils to Nulon 10-40W Synthetic and have since had no noticeable oil consumption, the exhaust is cleaner and it doesn't smell like its been burning oil when I stop, also idles smoother and quieter.

Doing all the labour myself made it worthwhile and buying everything from the states only owed me about $300-350 for parts including shipping.

project.r.racing · 11-06-2013, 11:54 AM

do you want to onsell that tool now you have no use for it?

jono165 · 11-06-2013, 12:17 PM

Id probably rather hold onto it. One of my mates wants to borrow it off me for his car. We might be able to arrange something for you to borrow it. ie postage up and back at your cost.

Its brilliant though, one hit and the retainers are off, another hit with the other part of the tools and they're back on. I saw a guy use one on a Miata/Mx5 on a youtube and it looked too easy.

project.r.racing · 11-06-2013, 12:57 PM

borrow it option works for me. shipping at my cost.

jono165 · 11-06-2013, 01:06 PM

no worries, pm me your details and I'll let you know postage price when I get home and the return address details.

I've got a set of valve stem seal pliers to remove the old seals as well, a deep socket works fine for reinstalling and gentle tap to make sure its seated properly.

project.r.racing · 11-06-2013, 01:15 PM

is the one you linked the actual product your used or something similar?

i dont need it for a while. (i think?)

jono165 · 11-06-2013, 01:23 PM

I used this exact one, at the time I had to buy it as a kit to get the smaller one, the bigger tool doesn't fit BP sized valve stems or in the whole the lifter goes.

http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-36050-Ke...ds=lisle+36050

I bought the long nose valve stem seal pliers off eBay for about $15 or so.

Just send me a PM when you need it.

09-04-2013, 10:28 AM	#1
jono165 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: melbourne Car: mazda Posts: 24	oil consumption Hi all, I'm just after some advice on the oil consumption of my 323. I have a Series 3 BA Astina 1.8 which only uses oil once the oil gets to about 2000-2500km old and smokes for a very brief time on startup on cold days. This only appears to be a problem once the oil has begun to degrade. It doesn't seem to use oil once the engine is hot. I get no noticeable smoke at high revs. The engine has 197000 on it. I run 15W-50 Shell HX7 in it. Ive read the series 2 astinas a quite prone to piston ring problems is this also the case for the series 3's? I'm about to change the timing belt so I think ill do the valve stem seals at the same time are these prone to failure at this mileage or is it more likely to be a ring problem? Is the best solution for now just to change the oil more often with a better oil?

09-04-2013, 10:32 AM	#2
Clean_Cookie obsessed-incomplete-broke Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Brisbane Car: BA Hardtop/Hatch Posts: 5,441	You could try going to a Penrite full synthetic oil, which is one of the few with zinc as an antiwear in it. May not help the problem but may stop it from getting worse. Series 3 were the worst. __________________ Worklog

09-04-2013, 10:45 AM	#4
Clean_Cookie obsessed-incomplete-broke Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Brisbane Car: BA Hardtop/Hatch Posts: 5,441	I saw somewhere how to replace without removing the head but it looked way more effort and easy to lose something down the hole. __________________ Worklog

09-04-2013, 11:03 AM	#5
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	you can put a bladder down into the camber and blow it up to hold the value up. but the when trying to refit the circlips and retainers and puting pressure on the springs. it's hard enough with the head out than with the head in working at weird angles. and there is oil everywhere. where's if you pull the head out, you'd clean it first before repairs. removing the timing belt, he is 33% towards removing the head, so he might as well go the hole hog. drop the coolent and replace the head gasket. i'd look at alternatives currently to doing any head work. if it is just the valve stems at are an issue, then the consumption should be too high to worry about. if the consumption amount is ringing alarm bells, then either the seals are really badly worn, or the is a secondry issue not known. which would be worth investigating first, cos spending alot of money on the head only to find oil is still being consumed is gonna double the repair bill. another thing to look at is money spent to repair versus time owning car. is it worth spending big money repairing, or just dealing with limited consumption. it is an old car, just gotta decide how old you are gonna keep it. Last edited by project.r.racing; 09-04-2013 at 11:05 AM.

09-04-2013, 11:09 AM	#6
Clean_Cookie obsessed-incomplete-broke Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Brisbane Car: BA Hardtop/Hatch Posts: 5,441	Or for 300 buy a good used engine once it gets bad enough to warrant doing any work. And thanks for the explanation Ryan. __________________ Worklog

09-04-2013, 10:38 AM	#3
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	the symptoms of cold startup smoke point towards worn valve stem seals. just as common as worn rings. worn oil rings normally mean smoke at high rpms, which you aint getting. as for the oil degrading, that can happen, but not after 2500km. unless somehow it is being severly contaminated somehow or really cheap crap mineral oil. valve stem seals isn't an easy job. the head needs to come off the block.

09-04-2013, 11:40 AM	#7
jono165 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: melbourne Car: mazda Posts: 24	Thanks for the input.I'im not too worried about labour to fix it as I do everything myself, I've rebuilt gearboxes and heads before so nothing phases me. I have access to the correct tools to replace the valve stem seals with the head still on the car. parts for these Mazdas are pretty cheap if you know where to look. The engine is a good runner other than the oil consumption but buying a 2nd hand engine is still a gamble. If I can determine that the problem is only the rings id probably just re-ring it, I'm not really planning on replacing the car in the near future. MX5 forums point towards sticky oil control rings in the BP engine so I might try a better oil with a higher detergent content to see if that helps.

09-04-2013, 11:51 AM	#8
Clean_Cookie obsessed-incomplete-broke Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Brisbane Car: BA Hardtop/Hatch Posts: 5,441	Don't know how smart or true it was but its rumored that running diesel oil which has more detergents for a a few thousand kms can help clean it out...I'd not be game without a good understanding of the differences...just something I've heard. __________________ Worklog

09-04-2013, 12:04 PM	#9
jono165 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: melbourne Car: mazda Posts: 24	that is correct. diesel engines produce more ash. a lot of better oils are now rated to both diesel and petrol use so there should be no problem using that. I think ill replace the stem seals when I do the timing belt, its not much extra work, use a better oil and make sure the PCV system is clean as a start.

11-06-2013, 09:52 AM	#10
jono165 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: melbourne Car: mazda Posts: 24	Just though I'd update this as its been a while. My Mazda is just on 200,000km now. I replaced the timing belt, tensioners and water pump (bitch of a job almost worth paying someone to do) while that was all apart I did the valve stem seals. The old ones were rock hard. I tried the compresses air in the cylinder trick which I found sucked, nylon rope in the cylinder is the way to go. I bought a tool like this for the valve retainers (http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-36200-Ke.../dp/B000P0ZJIS) which was worth every cent, just make sure you get the smaller one. Also did new oxygen sensor, cam and crank seals, PCV valve and thermostat. I changed oils to Nulon 10-40W Synthetic and have since had no noticeable oil consumption, the exhaust is cleaner and it doesn't smell like its been burning oil when I stop, also idles smoother and quieter. Doing all the labour myself made it worthwhile and buying everything from the states only owed me about $300-350 for parts including shipping.

11-06-2013, 11:54 AM	#11
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	do you want to onsell that tool now you have no use for it?

11-06-2013, 12:17 PM	#12
jono165 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: melbourne Car: mazda Posts: 24	Id probably rather hold onto it. One of my mates wants to borrow it off me for his car. We might be able to arrange something for you to borrow it. ie postage up and back at your cost. Its brilliant though, one hit and the retainers are off, another hit with the other part of the tools and they're back on. I saw a guy use one on a Miata/Mx5 on a youtube and it looked too easy.

11-06-2013, 12:57 PM	#13
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	borrow it option works for me. shipping at my cost.

11-06-2013, 01:06 PM	#14
jono165 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: melbourne Car: mazda Posts: 24	no worries, pm me your details and I'll let you know postage price when I get home and the return address details. I've got a set of valve stem seal pliers to remove the old seals as well, a deep socket works fine for reinstalling and gentle tap to make sure its seated properly.

11-06-2013, 01:15 PM	#15
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	is the one you linked the actual product your used or something similar? i dont need it for a while. (i think?)

11-06-2013, 01:23 PM	#16
jono165 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: melbourne Car: mazda Posts: 24	I used this exact one, at the time I had to buy it as a kit to get the smaller one, the bigger tool doesn't fit BP sized valve stems or in the whole the lifter goes. http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-36050-Ke...ds=lisle+36050 I bought the long nose valve stem seal pliers off eBay for about $15 or so. Just send me a PM when you need it.